Why the Hellenistic era hypothesis should be taken seriously

Discussion about the Hebrew Bible, Septuagint, pseudepigrapha, Philo, Josephus, Talmud, Dead Sea Scrolls, archaeology, etc.
Secret Alias
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Re: Why the Hellenistic era hypothesis should be taken seriously

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Not to mention that my wife is Jewish(and atheist), we go to Temple on High Holidays, my daughter is currently going to 5 weeks of sleepaway Jewish camp, and we of course contribute to Temple. But lets leave all that aside.
And so what is your point with this? I have a Catholic wife and ended up spending a lot of time in Catholic institutions. In fact, as German immigrants (one Jewish one Protestant German) I grew up spending time in the Kolping society because we had a close Catholic German neighbor. Doesn't mean my mother or my father or my brother or I necessarily spent a lot of time considering Catholic culture or were open-minded to those beliefs. I still make jokes that my wife who was raised religiously has never so much as opened a Bible as seems to be fairly normal for many/most Catholic believers.

The point here is that Hebrew was an archaic language EVEN FOR JEWS for most of existence of modern Jewry. Since you made this personal. I assume being confronted with "Jewish identity" everyday have to try and make sense of it has helped you embrace this fringe theory. Why not take my advice and accept that Judaism is just weird and learn to accept its weirdness without trying to obscure it with the noble ideas of Plato and Greek philosophy. Again Jews like Catholics and many ancient religions tend not to take their religion that seriously. The OBSERVE their religion rather than make sense of it. So what are the roadmaps for your sensibilities to help you make sense of all of this weirdness?

If I am to play psychologist along comes a guy like Gmirkin's whose theory makes your wife's religion more "ordinary." Judaism is a strange religion. As my friend Steve Cowan once said, if you had never heard of Jews before and encountered one in the street you likely wouldn't believe that such a person was possible let alone a whole culture of such strange people. I know it is tempting to make the Pentateuch "ordinary" but it is strange document. There are so many examples of our present Hebrew text demonstrating itself to be corrupt and the LXX either preserving these corruptions in transmission or being little help solving them. https://books.google.com/books?id=3KtVA ... ss&f=false https://www.google.com/books/edition/Th ... frontcover No one anywhere has ever suggested that the LXX preserves a Greek translation of the original exemplar of the Hebrew Pentateuch. Doesn't that strike you as strange? Surely if Gmirkin is right the LXX attests to or testifies to the "original Hebrew text" the exemplar. But this is silly. The LXX attests to the same corruptions as the MT or SP albeit translated into Greek.

I don't know of any scholar with sufficient naivete to think or propose the LXX solves all the obscurities that arise out of the textual corruption of all known Hebrew exemplars. The experts in the Hebrew language I know don't have this idiotic notion that ANY SURVIVING TEXT is "pure" let alone the LXX witnessing the "original pure" Hebrew exemplar. The MT, the SP, the LXX are all descendants of some lost ur-text of course written in Hebrew. But no one in their right mind thinks the LXX is a Greek translation of anything but the same corrupt Hebrew traditions that have come down to us. There's a naivete to all this talk about the LXX providing us with a snapshot of the exemplar. The MT is a corrupt copy of something from before the Hellenistic period. The SP is a corrupt copy of something from before the Hellenistic period. And the Greek translation of the Hebrew text in Alexandria either around 270 or around 150 BCE is similarly a copy of a corrupt Hebrew exemplar. This theory would be and is laughable to a serious scholar of Biblical Hebrew for this reason alone. It resembles the deluded sincerity of a hillbilly farmer trying to make sense of the "good book" and is filled with generalities and oversimplifications.

Why do these childish oversimplifications work for you? Perhaps because you want to make your marriage to your wife and your daughter's participation in this bizarre culture more sensible to you. That's an admirable naivete I guess. But why not start with the idea that Judaism is weird and probably incomprehensible (as many learned Jews have failed to make sense of all its complexities having critical abilities in the primary language of the Pentateuch). Linking it with Plato and Greek philosophy is only a way of explaining away the weirdness. Weirdness is good. My advice is to let the Bible be weird rather than whitewash it in the name of "sameness."
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Why the Hellenistic era hypothesis should be taken seriously

Post by neilgodfrey »

andrewcriddle wrote: Tue Jul 04, 2023 7:15 am However, from previous experience, you would regard any specific examples that I might give, as being merely examples of bad practice in ancient history.

Andrew Criddle
Ah yes, but I would hope to be able to place those examples alongside not my mere opinion but beside specific quotations of the likes of Moses I. Finley e.g.


What it comes down to, then, is our different views of how to read ancient sources. The basic point I keep in mind and am always on the lookout for is the kind of critique of biblical scholarship that was addressed back in 1992 by Philip Davies: In Search of Ancient Israel.

I also think, at least to some extent, that this MAY be an area where I take a different approach (at least to some extent) from Russell Gmirkin -- which is possibly why I find myself not so confident about how he uses the "letter of Aristeas". Gmirkin has made it clear he is not a "minimalist" -- while I do see myself going along with the methods of the "minimalists".

(From other discussions it appears to me that Gmirkin might tend to read certain sources in a way that is somewhat closer to your perspective than to mine. We disagree in a few areas as a result, I think.)
Last edited by neilgodfrey on Tue Jul 04, 2023 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Why the Hellenistic era hypothesis should be taken seriously

Post by neilgodfrey »

StephenGoranson wrote: Tue Jul 04, 2023 7:49 am I tend to agree with Andrew Criddle that it is difficult to attempt dialog with neilgodfrey.
Here is one example: ng falsely claimed that I wrote something that I did not write, later claiming that all would know he was kidding:

[sg]If you, RG, are against such parodies will you now disown the flat-out lie parody posted by N Godfrey? in Plato and the Pentateuch thread, Tue Mar 14, 2023 12:56 pm:

[ng]"Hi Stephen -- it looks like the part of your post that contained the apology for misleading readers here about Gmirkin and Routledge inadvertently got stripped out because some technical hitch ... embarrassing, I know, but it happens.... I did happen to catch a glimpse of it before it disappeared, though and can repeat it more or less verbatim:

{{falsely attributed to me, sg, by ng}} We all make mistakes. . . . I was wrong . . . . Yet again, I was mistaken, as better research by someone else proved. How embarrassing. But I hope I learned some things about research, and moved on to other questions.

[[quoted Thu Apr 27, 2023 10:07 am]]
I hope I would never attempt to kid with you again, Stephen, and I am sorry if you did not notice the "just kidding smiley" that I also included at the end of the post, or did not understand what I thought would be its obvious intent at humour -- heavy handed though it appears to have come across.

In my defence, I would like to point out that not only did I attach a winky smiley at the end of the post, but I was actually quoting your own words where you were describing a time when you did, like we all do, make a mistake, words that at the time I thought would be fresh in your memory and hence the joke would be even more apparent than it actually was.

I want to make it clear now that my words at the time were a failed attempt by me to hopefully provoke, through a bit of ironical humour, some admission that we can all make mistakes and to be a little less antagonistic and for you to treat others as you yourself would like to be treated.

I do not know you personally and I was wrong to presume that I could respond something you wrote in that way. I am sorry.

I will right now return to that original post and add a link to this comment I am writing here.

----
Subsequently edited to add the words: "and for you to treat others as you yourself would like to be treated."
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Why the Hellenistic era hypothesis should be taken seriously

Post by neilgodfrey »

andrewcriddle wrote: Tue Jul 04, 2023 7:15 am
neilgodfrey wrote: Sun Jul 02, 2023 5:12 pm
andrewcriddle wrote: Sat Jul 01, 2023 4:12 amFinally, there are also technical problems with the idea of the Pentateuch as a largely invented work of the Hellenistic period. It requires you to adopt improbable secondary positions such as dating Deutero-Isaiah to the Hellenistic period
Can you unpack that more?

I meant that (at least IMO) dating Deutero-Isaiah to the Hellenistic period is improbable. Gmirkin, however, is required to do so because Deutero-Isaiah shows knowledge of traditions also found in the Pentateuch (not necessarily knowledge of the Pentateuch in anything like its present form).
What I was curious about is what the reasons are for believing Deutero-Isaiah to be pre-Hellenistic. What is it about the work that is considered more pre-Hellenistic than Hellenistic?

(This is an area I have not read much about and you may give me a few good pointers for consideration to begin with.)
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Why the Hellenistic era hypothesis should be taken seriously

Post by neilgodfrey »

rgprice wrote: Mon Jul 03, 2023 11:56 am Opposition to the Hellenistic era hypothesis seems to be along the following points:

1) DSS material is dated to as early as 250 BCE.
- 1.a. It seems rather unlikely that the DSS contains exemplars of the original drafts of the Pentateuch.
- 1.b. If the Pentateuch were produced around 270, as RG claims, how could such a vast collection of writings have developed related to it in the span of only a couple of decades?
2) Many works of the so-called Jewish prophets are dated to between 700 BCE and 400 BCE. Some, such as 2nd Isaiah, refer to material from the Pentateuch. Surely we can't be expected to re-date these works as well?
3) Many works of the Jewish scriptures are quite complementary of the Persians and suggest a Persian era origin of the Pentateuch. Why do so many Jewish scriptures discuss the Persian era in such favorable terms and re-count the re-building of the Temple under the Persians, if this was not the time during which "Judaism" took its form and the major texts of Judaism were produced?

Far as I know, these are the main objections. And they are reasonable objections. However, none of these are objections that cannot be overcome.

Addressing the literary dependencies within the scriptures is far more important and informative and should be the basis for dating. These other issues have to be dealt with in relation to the literary evidence.
One more objection that that has been raised here by Andrew is the claim by Hecataeus. I quote the relevant section:

3 The leader of this colony was one Moses, a very wise and valiant man, who, after he had possessed himself of the country, amongst other cities, built that now most famous city, Jerusalem, and the temple there, which is so greatly revered among them.

He instituted the holy rites and ceremonies with which they worship God; and made laws for the methodical government of the state. He also divided the people into twelve tribes, which he regarded as the most perfect number; because it corresponds to the twelve months within a whole year.

4 He made no representation or image of gods, because he considered that nothing of a human shape was applicable to God; but that heaven, which surrounds the earth, was the only God, and that all things were in its power.

But he so arranged the rites and ceremonies of the sacrifices, and the manner and nature of their customs, as that they should be wholly different from all other nations; for, as a result of the expulsion of his people, he introduced a most inhuman and unsociable manner of life.

A fuller quote is athttps://vridar.org/2015/05/25/moses-and-the-exodus-according-to-the-ancient-greeks-and-egyptians-hecataeus/

--- along with a part discussion of method at https://vridar.org/2015/05/31/tales-of- ... -two-ways/
and further on method: https://vridar.org/2012/12/30/why-the-b ... e-rabbits/
rgprice
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Re: Why the Hellenistic era hypothesis should be taken seriously

Post by rgprice »

neilgodfrey wrote: Tue Jul 04, 2023 3:05 pm A fuller quote is athttps://vridar.org/2015/05/25/moses-and-the-exodus-according-to-the-ancient-greeks-and-egyptians-hecataeus/

--- along with a part discussion of method at https://vridar.org/2015/05/31/tales-of- ... -two-ways/
and further on method: https://vridar.org/2012/12/30/why-the-b ... e-rabbits/
And what exactly is the problem with Gmirkin's handling of this issue? I think the way he addresses Hecataeus is perfectly reasonable.

And I mean quite frankly I'm not even sure that Gmirkin is skeptical enough. Yes, I know that we don't have pristine copies of many ancient works, but that doesn't mean that we have to just assume that everything is authentic and well sourced. Obviously we don't have Hecataeus, we have quotes and references to Hecataeus from much later writers. Its like trying to rely on Eusebius' quotes of Papias. We of course don't have any works of Papias. We have much later supposed quotes of Papias by Eusebius. Just because that's the best we have doesn't mean that we should just assume that what Eusebius presents is correct.

And this is especially true because we know that Eusebius has misrepresented material, both intentionally and unintentionally, in many other instances. Same goes for Josephus. Against Apion is riddled with misrepresentations, material presented out of context, mis-quotes, etc. And we know that later writers, such as Diodorus Siculus, often supplemented works they were "quoting" with newer material to "clarify" or "correct" older accounts.

So given that the main accounts of Hecataeus come from first century sources, this material is almost worthless as "evidence".
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Why the Hellenistic era hypothesis should be taken seriously

Post by neilgodfrey »

rgprice wrote: Tue Jul 04, 2023 4:32 pm
So given that the main accounts of Hecataeus come from first century sources, this material is almost worthless as "evidence".
How refreshing it is to meet a like-minded view in this forum! :cheers:
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Why the Hellenistic era hypothesis should be taken seriously

Post by neilgodfrey »

I recall when I first read Herodotus's Histories I was somewhat discombobulated to see that though he claimed to have travelled through Palestine or nearby he had nothing unusual to report about the people there.

Sometimes silence can arouse suspicions that need to be looked into more carefully.
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Re: Why the Hellenistic era hypothesis should be taken seriously

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neilgodfrey wrote: Tue Jul 04, 2023 4:57 pm
rgprice wrote: Tue Jul 04, 2023 4:32 pm
So given that the main accounts of Hecataeus come from first century sources, this material is almost worthless as "evidence".
How refreshing it is to meet a like-minded view in this forum! :cheers:
There is to much reliance on "the best we have". Yes, it may be "the best we have", but that doesn't make it any good.

The exact problem we are dealing with here is corruption and misunderstanding the provenance of sources. We can't use those potentially (and in many cases demonstrated) corrupted and misrepresented sources to try adn reconstruct the picture.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Why the Hellenistic era hypothesis should be taken seriously

Post by neilgodfrey »

rgprice wrote: Tue Jul 04, 2023 5:11 pm
neilgodfrey wrote: Tue Jul 04, 2023 4:57 pm
rgprice wrote: Tue Jul 04, 2023 4:32 pm
So given that the main accounts of Hecataeus come from first century sources, this material is almost worthless as "evidence".
How refreshing it is to meet a like-minded view in this forum! :cheers:
There is to much reliance on "the best we have". Yes, it may be "the best we have", but that doesn't make it any good.

The exact problem we are dealing with here is corruption and misunderstanding the provenance of sources. We can't use those potentially (and in many cases demonstrated) corrupted and misrepresented sources to try adn reconstruct the picture.
Yes -- and this is where Andrew and I part over how to use sources -- and to some extent I think I part from Russell Gmirkin for similar reasons over his use of the "letter to Aristeas". He may well be right, of course. But it's an area where I think other reconstructions may be able to enter.
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