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Re: GDon's Historical Jesus Theory (updated for Carrier OHJ review)

Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2023 11:32 pm
by neilgodfrey
GakuseiDon wrote: Fri Jun 30, 2023 11:28 pm At this point, he was just another pagan demigod, and Jews and pagans adopted him as such. Different groups developed legends around him for different purposes, with one group eventually dominating. I think the Ebionites were the continuation of the original group. Note: all is speculation!
In what way was he distinctive among other Jews who were crucified to the extent that made plausible the idea that he should be raised to demi-god status? Why demi-god? How was his daily life so extraordinarily different from the life of any other law-abiding Jew? Or any other Jewish martyr of yore?

Re: GDon's Historical Jesus Theory (updated for Carrier OHJ review)

Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2023 4:42 am
by andrewcriddle
I tend to agree with Neil's concerns. The extremely minimal historical Jesus leaves unexplained why this Jesus was executed and why his followers were pre-disposed to take seriously the idea that God had vindicated him through raising him from the dead. (See Acts 2:24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pangs of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. It also leaves unexplained why he had any followers to speak of.

I'm also unsure that the evidence allows us to say that Jesus was a strict law observant Jew, partly because this was itself a contested category in the 1st century CE. If, as is IMO probable, Jesus taught a version of Jewish piety that marginalised the temple but was not sympathetic to the Pharisees then many would have regarded him as lax in observance of the Law.

Although this is not mentioned in Paul, the evidence from the Gospels is so widespread that Jesus was what we would call a faith-healer that I doubt if we can disregard it. (FWIW this is also found in the TF.) It would at least partly explain why he was a figure of any significance, significant enough to have a number of followers, significant enough to fall foul of the authorities.

Andrew Criddle

Re: GDon's Historical Jesus Theory (updated for Carrier OHJ review)

Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2023 8:22 am
by GakuseiDon
andrewcriddle wrote: Sat Jul 01, 2023 4:42 am I tend to agree with Neil's concerns. The extremely minimal historical Jesus leaves unexplained why this Jesus was executed and why his followers were pre-disposed to take seriously the idea that God had vindicated him through raising him from the dead. (See Acts 2:24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pangs of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. It also leaves unexplained why he had any followers to speak of.
I agree. That information doesn't seem to be in the earliest layers of texts that I'm using. There are large gaps in my Historical Jesus Theory that are left unexplained without speculation.
andrewcriddle wrote: Sat Jul 01, 2023 4:42 amI'm also unsure that the evidence allows us to say that Jesus was a strict law observant Jew, partly because this was itself a contested category in the 1st century CE. If, as is IMO probable, Jesus taught a version of Jewish piety that marginalised the temple but was not sympathetic to the Pharisees then many would have regarded him as lax in observance of the Law.
I was thinking that he might have had his own small group, with their own beliefs around what laws God wanted Jews to follow. He "became obedient unto death, therefore God highly exalted him" (Phil 2:8-9) He was a strict proponent of that Law, preferring to be executed rather than to go against those God-commanded laws.
andrewcriddle wrote: Sat Jul 01, 2023 4:42 amAlthough this is not mentioned in Paul, the evidence from the Gospels is so widespread that Jesus was what we would call a faith-healer that I doubt if we can disregard it. (FWIW this is also found in the TF.) It would at least partly explain why he was a figure of any significance, significant enough to have a number of followers, significant enough to fall foul of the authorities.
I tend to think that may have been the case, but because the idea wasn't in the earliest texts that I am using, it's not part of my theory. Since I don't see the Gospels as historical reports, I'm happy to see that idea being injected retrospectively into the Gospels. drawn from the Old Testament. I don't think it's needed to explain a following though. Menachem Mendel Schneerson (1902-1994) was thought to have been the Messiah by his followers:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menachem_ ... Schneerson

Schneerson had a passion and desire to raise awareness of the coming of the Messiah. During his life, many of his admirers hoped that he would be revealed as the Messiah. They pointed to traditional Jewish theology which teaches that in every generation there is one person who is worthy of being the Messiah, and if God deems the time right, he will be revealed by God as such... Although Schneerson constantly objected to any talk that he could be the Messiah, this notion sparked controversy, particularly among those who were unfamiliar with these traditional teachings... Since Schneerson's passing, the Messianic movement has largely shrunk, although some followers still believe him to be the Messiah.


Re: GDon's Historical Jesus Theory (updated for Carrier OHJ review)

Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2023 11:51 am
by nightshadetwine
I pretty much have the same opinion as you about the historical Jesus.

1. Before he died it's possible his followers thought he was "special" in some way but probably not "divine". He may have been some kind of exorcist or miracle worker. These weren't uncommon during that time period (and even today). Maybe they thought he was the messiah.

2. After he died, they deified him by claiming he was raised and exalted to heaven. I think part of what caused them to deify him was trying to cope with his death. Instead of him suffering and dying for no reason he now suffered and died for the benefit of humanity and was raised and exalted for his good deeds. It would have been very easy to associate his suffering and death with Greco-Roman heroes and saviors who went through suffering, died, and conquered death or were raised from death. There was already a popular belief in Greco-Roman culture that humans that did things for the benefit of humankind were raised to immortality and deified. The later Gospels portray Jesus as a typical "divine benefactor" by having him do all the things that were done by benefactors. There were also the Roman emperors and Egyptian pharaohs who were said to ascend to heaven and become divine. Roman emperors were raised in imitation of Romulus and Heracles and the pharaohs were raised in imitation of Osiris and Re/the sun god. Elijah, Enoch, and Moses had stories about ascending to heaven, though as far as I'm aware, they weren't deified and worshiped as a god like Jesus and pagan divine humans. There were also passages in the Hebrew scriptures like the suffering servant and passages that use death and resurrection imagery describing the restoration of Israel that Jesus could easily be read back into.

3. As far as the visions, I think they were likely some kind of mystical visionary experiences. The youtube channel Esoterica did a video on this topic recently. I also think it's possible that they didn't really have any kind of visions, they just said they did because that would support the deification process and give their cult more credibility. There were already stories about beings who died and appeared to people after their death like Romulus and Heracles. Someone claimed they saw one of the Roman emperors ascend to heaven after he died. You also had visionary experiences in the mystery cults. Part of the initiation was some kind of vision. So saying that they saw the dying and resurrecting Jesus would remind people of the visions people had in the mystery cults which revolved around a deity who experiences and conquers death. They were using all of the common tropes that were used to deify someone.

One argument that supports mythicism in my opinion is the way Jesus is worshipped. The way he's worshiped seems to resemble fictional deities rather than historical people. I'm not aware of the Roman emperors or Egyptian pharaohs becoming personal saviors for their followers. The concept of ritually identifying with a deity who becomes a "model" for their followers by being the first to be resurrected/raised from death and their followers then sharing in their resurrection is only found in the mystery cults as far as I'm aware. None of the mystery cult deities were based on historical people (even though they were believed to have lived historically). Of course, it's possible for a historical person to be influenced by mythical beings. The Roman emperors and Egyptian pharaohs were given stories that were based on the stories of mythical beings.

Re: GDon's Historical Jesus Theory (updated for Carrier OHJ review)

Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2023 12:19 pm
by Peter Kirby
GakuseiDon wrote: Fri Jun 30, 2023 9:10 pm
Peter Kirby wrote: Fri Jun 30, 2023 7:50 am
GakuseiDon wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 11:47 pm 4. Visions of him after his death led to his identification as the Suffering Servant in Isaiah and also the Christ
Can you say more about how (4) happened and the background for making such an identification because of visions?
I can't, I'm afraid. It'd depend on whether the association of Jesus with Christ came before the visions (i.e. while he was alive) or as a result of them. If the latter, it may be that the visions confirmed the earlier belief. Either way, I'd say there is little doubt that the Hebrew Scriptures (e.g. the "Suffering Servant" of Isaiah 53) were then mined for its "Christ prophecy" content, which drove the creation of stories used by Paul and the Gospel writers.
GakuseiDon wrote: Fri Jun 30, 2023 11:28 pm
Peter Kirby wrote: Fri Jun 30, 2023 9:15 pmWhat makes us think that such people would be mining Isaiah 53 for a Christ prophecy? Is there any context of contemporary thought in which we can place such a development, and if so, how did it end up being Galilean followers of Jesus?
My speculation is: there was a Jesus who was a religious leader, like Simeon ben Gamliel, he had followers, he was known for being a strict follower of the Law, much like James the Just. He was considered a martyr for being killed for some infraction against the Jewish leadership and/or the Romans. Somehow he was thought to have been taken to heaven, and he was able to be invoked for magical purposes.

At this point, he was just another pagan demigod, and Jews and pagans adopted him as such. Different groups developed legends around him for different purposes, with one group eventually dominating. I think the Ebionites were the continuation of the original group. Note: all is speculation!
Don't we have many examples of martyrs from the time period? Why does Jesus get interpreted in this way as a suffering servant based on Isaiah? What kind of religious context led to that interpretation? And how is that context connected to the Galilean followers of Jesus?

Or are you saying that it was some other group of people, besides the Galilean followers, who first applied this interpretation? If so, what was the religious context in which they existed, and why were they involved in applying these ideas to this executed religious leader?

Re: GDon's Historical Jesus Theory (updated for Carrier OHJ review)

Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2023 12:49 pm
by Paul the Uncertain
There is an antagonism between specificity (which generally improves usefulness) and generality (another term for non-specificity which always improves probability under uncertainty). The logical relation is implication. "P implies Q" means that P is at least as specific as Q. (P cannot be true unless Q is, too.)

Example: "Today's high temperature will be 32 degrees C" is potentially more useful than "Today will be a hot one." However, so long as the matter is uncertain, the latter statement is more plausible. If the high temp turns out to be 31C or 33C, the more specific statement is false, but the less specific one is still true.

Under all normative definitions of plausibility if P implies Q, then Q is no less plausible than P. Under Bayes and similar plausibility=probability models, if uncertain P implies Q, but Q doesn't imply P, then Q is more probable than P.

Andrew (like everybody else) probably wants plenty of both: high specificity and high plausibility. Sure, no doubt there's a "sweet spot" where whatever the loss in plausibility in specifying a reason for Jesus having followers is offset by the improved usefulness of "People followed Jesus because he worked miracles" compared with "People followed Jesus."

"Minimal" as Carrier uses the term in the phrase minimal historical Jesus, means most general (= least specific) provided we require some level of usefulness. Andrew may not find Carrier's chosen minimal level of usefulness interesting, which is fine. The posted price is to give up some plausibility for each and every gain in specificity.

What then is the relationship between Carrier MHJ (C-MHJ for short):

1. An actual man at some point named Jesus acquired followers in life who continued as an identifiable movement after his death.
2. This is the same Jesus who was claimed by some of his followers to have been executed by the Jewish or Roman authorities.
3. This is the same Jesus some of whose followers soon began worship­ing as a living god (or demigod).

and what I take to be your proposal's formal definition (hereafter D-MHJ):

1. He was a humble man. He came with no supernatural power, and therefore didn't perform miracles. He lived a life devoted to the Law.
2. He became a martyr, by challenging either the Romans or the Jews over some point of Law that he decided to adhere to, even though he knew he'd suffer for it
3. He was crucified
4. Visions of him after his death led to his identification as the Suffering Servant in Isaiah and also the Christ
5. Once he was identified as the Christ, people starting searching the Scriptures to create stories about him. This rapid legendary development led to the writing of the Gospels

The logical relationship between C-MHJ and D-MHJ is nuanced. D-MHJ seems to imply that Jesus was a real man (that much of C-MHJ 1), and apparently acquired followers (somebody had the visions in 4 and did the identifying in 5). However, there is nothing in D-MHJ about him ever being called Jesus nor acquiring followers in life nor their having anything to do with an identifiable movement.

Here's what I don't think

I don't think you intended to be more specific than C-MHJ on some points (Suffering Servant) but less specific than Carrier on others. In particular, I don't think you dispute the Carrier points which you omit. I think you just simply overlooked these items, and that the following would be a fair representation of your actual position (mark it X-MHJ for identification):

1. An actual man at some point named Jesus acquired followers in life who continued as an identifiable movement after his death. He was a humble man. He came with no supernatural power, and therefore didn't perform miracles. He lived a life devoted to the Law.

2. This is the same Jesus who was claimed by some of his followers to have been executed by the Jewish or Roman authorities. He became a martyr, by challenging either the Romans or the Jews over some point of Law that he decided to adhere to, even though he knew he'd suffer for it. He was crucified.

3. This is the same Jesus some of whose followers soon began worship­ing as a living god (or demigod). Visions of him after his death led to his identification as the Suffering Servant in Isaiah and also the Christ. Once he was identified as the Christ, people starting searching the Scriptures to create stories about him. This rapid legendary development led to the writing of the Gospels.

X-MHJ implies both D-MHJ and C-MHJ. It is therefore less probable than either one, but more specific than either one.
More useful than C-MHJ? For some purposes, yes - Andrew and you are entitled to your 'druthers in the unavoidable trade-off between plausibility and specificity - but Carrier had a specific usage in mind.

C-MHJ stands in for all the more specific relevant HJ's in order that its defeat in match play against a minimal Doherty-Carrier hypothesis means that each and every HJ is less plausible than simple Doherty-Carrier. All the relevant HJ's taken together are assessed less likely true than not.

I don't see that Carrier can be criticized for that decision within a Bayesian framework. Nor does your preference for more specificity make his trade-off "wrong" for the particular purpose he chose. I think there is a real problem where your preferred MHJ, with its trade-off between specificity and plausibility for whatever purpose, fits into a discussion of Carrier's design of a trade-off to suit a specified purpose.

Re: GDon's Historical Jesus Theory (updated for Carrier OHJ review)

Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2023 3:35 pm
by GakuseiDon
Peter Kirby wrote: Sat Jul 01, 2023 12:19 pm
GakuseiDon wrote: Fri Jun 30, 2023 9:10 pmMy speculation is: there was a Jesus who was a religious leader, like Simeon ben Gamliel, he had followers, he was known for being a strict follower of the Law, much like James the Just. He was considered a martyr for being killed for some infraction against the Jewish leadership and/or the Romans. Somehow he was thought to have been taken to heaven, and he was able to be invoked for magical purposes.

At this point, he was just another pagan demigod, and Jews and pagans adopted him as such. Different groups developed legends around him for different purposes, with one group eventually dominating. I think the Ebionites were the continuation of the original group. Note: all is speculation!
Don't we have many examples of martyrs from the time period?
We do. From memory, Josephus and Tacitus report a story of God evacuating the Temple, saying "we're out of here!" because of all the good people being killed by Jewish rebels and robbers.
Peter Kirby wrote: Sat Jul 01, 2023 12:19 pmWhy does Jesus get interpreted in this way as a suffering servant based on Isaiah?
My guess: through visions, convincing people that he'd ascended to heaven. Somehow that convinced people that God had elected Jesus as Christ as reward for his obedience to God's Law. Why they'd think that, I don't know.
Peter Kirby wrote: Sat Jul 01, 2023 12:19 pmWhat kind of religious context led to that interpretation?
I don't know.
Peter Kirby wrote: Sat Jul 01, 2023 12:19 pmAnd how is that context connected to the Galilean followers of Jesus?
I don't know.
Peter Kirby wrote: Sat Jul 01, 2023 12:19 pmOr are you saying that it was some other group of people, besides the Galilean followers, who first applied this interpretation?
I think so. The letters that we have were written by educated people, so probably represent the views of a minority of believers at the time. We don't have the writings of the illiterate ones, obviously. If that was the majority of believers, then the earliest Christians may have had very different views about Jesus. They may not have thought that Jesus was the Christ. But when the educated got hold of the story, they mined the Old Testament for content and the story underwent rapid legendary development.
Peter Kirby wrote: Sat Jul 01, 2023 12:19 pmIf so, what was the religious context in which they existed, and why were they involved in applying these ideas to this executed religious leader?
I don't know. It has something to do with Jesus' adherence to God's Law leading to his death, and visions of him being raised by God as a result. That's the picture that I get from the earliest texts. I could speculate answers to your questions above based on the Gospels, but I'm trying to avoid that.

Re: GDon's Historical Jesus Theory (updated for Carrier OHJ review)

Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2023 3:38 pm
by Peter Kirby
GakuseiDon wrote: Sat Jul 01, 2023 3:35 pm
Peter Kirby wrote: Sat Jul 01, 2023 12:19 pm
GakuseiDon wrote: Fri Jun 30, 2023 9:10 pmMy speculation is: there was a Jesus who was a religious leader, like Simeon ben Gamliel, he had followers, he was known for being a strict follower of the Law, much like James the Just. He was considered a martyr for being killed for some infraction against the Jewish leadership and/or the Romans. Somehow he was thought to have been taken to heaven, and he was able to be invoked for magical purposes.

At this point, he was just another pagan demigod, and Jews and pagans adopted him as such. Different groups developed legends around him for different purposes, with one group eventually dominating. I think the Ebionites were the continuation of the original group. Note: all is speculation!
Don't we have many examples of martyrs from the time period?
We do. Josephus reports a story of God evacuating the Temple, saying "we're out of here!" because of all the good people being killed, from memory.
Peter Kirby wrote: Sat Jul 01, 2023 12:19 pmWhy does Jesus get interpreted in this way as a suffering servant based on Isaiah?
My guess: through visions, convincing people that he'd ascended to heaven. Somehow that convinced people that God had elected Jesus as Christ as reward for his obedience to God's Law. Why they'd think that, I don't know.
Peter Kirby wrote: Sat Jul 01, 2023 12:19 pmWhat kind of religious context led to that interpretation?
I don't know.
Peter Kirby wrote: Sat Jul 01, 2023 12:19 pmAnd how is that context connected to the Galilean followers of Jesus?
I don't know.
Peter Kirby wrote: Sat Jul 01, 2023 12:19 pmOr are you saying that it was some other group of people, besides the Galilean followers, who first applied this interpretation?
I think so. The letters that we have were written by educated people, so probably represent the views of a minority of believers at the time. We don't have the writings of the illiterate ones, obviously. If that was the majority of believers, then the earliest Christians may have had very different views about Jesus. They may not have thought that Jesus was the Christ. But when the educated got hold of the story, they mined the Old Testament for content and the story underwent rapid legendary development.
Peter Kirby wrote: Sat Jul 01, 2023 12:19 pmIf so, what was the religious context in which they existed, and why were they involved in applying these ideas to this executed religious leader?
I don't know. It has something to do with Jesus' adherence to God's Law leading to his death.
So the Galilean followers thought he had ascended to heaven, and someone like Paul interpreted the rest? Alright, I guess that works, although it still seems a bit strange.

Re: GDon's Historical Jesus Theory (updated for Carrier OHJ review)

Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2023 4:17 pm
by GakuseiDon
Paul the Uncertain wrote: Sat Jul 01, 2023 12:49 pmAndrew (like everybody else) probably wants plenty of both: high specificity and high plausibility. Sure, no doubt there's a "sweet spot" where whatever the loss in plausibility in specifying a reason for Jesus having followers is offset by the improved usefulness of "People followed Jesus because he worked miracles" compared with "People followed Jesus."
Sure, that's understandable. I've presented a theory with vague parameters that people want to have cleared up. Since I'm trying to keep my theory consistent with the content within a small number of texts (mostly NT letters and 1 Clement), there isn't enough information to make it less vague.

Naturally I can speculate until the cows come home! There is already enough speculation in my Theory, so I'm trying to keep it to a minimum.
Paul the Uncertain wrote: Sat Jul 01, 2023 12:49 pmI don't think you intended to be more specific than C-MHJ on some points (Suffering Servant) but less specific than Carrier on others. In particular, I don't think you dispute the Carrier points which you omit. I think you just simply overlooked these items, and that the following would be a fair representation of your actual position (mark it X-MHJ for identification):

1. An actual man at some point named Jesus acquired followers in life who continued as an identifiable movement after his death. He was a humble man. He came with no supernatural power, and therefore didn't perform miracles. He lived a life devoted to the Law.

2. This is the same Jesus who was claimed by some of his followers to have been executed by the Jewish or Roman authorities. He became a martyr, by challenging either the Romans or the Jews over some point of Law that he decided to adhere to, even though he knew he'd suffer for it. He was crucified.

3. This is the same Jesus some of whose followers soon began worship­ing as a living god (or demigod). Visions of him after his death led to his identification as the Suffering Servant in Isaiah and also the Christ. Once he was identified as the Christ, people starting searching the Scriptures to create stories about him. This rapid legendary development led to the writing of the Gospels.

I love this formulation, Paul! I hope you don't mind if I steal this when I do the rewrites for my podcast.
Paul the Uncertain wrote: Sat Jul 01, 2023 12:49 pmX-MHJ implies both D-MHJ and C-MHJ. It is therefore less probable than either one, but more specific than either one.
More useful than C-MHJ? For some purposes, yes - Andrew and you are entitled to your 'druthers in the unavoidable trade-off between plausibility and specificity - but Carrier had a specific usage in mind.
I agree with you there. The more specific a theory, the less probably it becomes. It's something Carrier points out in OHJ and which he calls "The Complexity Objection":

The 'minimal myth' hypothesis developed in Chapter 3 is not simply 'Jesus began as a mythical person'. It has five separate components, and as such could possibly have a much lower prior than nonhistoricity does generally. This is because adding elements to a theory always reduces its prior. (OHJ, page 246)

Paul the Uncertain wrote: Sat Jul 01, 2023 12:49 pmC-MHJ stands in for all the more specific relevant HJ's in order that its defeat in match play against a minimal Doherty-Carrier hypothesis means that each and every HJ is less plausible than simple Doherty-Carrier. All the relevant HJ's taken together are assessed less likely true than not.

I don't see that Carrier can be criticized for that decision within a Bayesian framework. Nor does your preference for more specificity make his trade-off "wrong" for the particular purpose he chose. I think there is a real problem where your preferred MHJ, with its trade-off between specificity and plausibility for whatever purpose, fits into a discussion of Carrier's design of a trade-off to suit a specified purpose.
Initially I wasn't planning to spend much time on presenting my own Historicist Theory in my review of OHJ. But as I progressed through the review, it became apparent that it was needed. I already knew that Carrier violated his own "Complexity Objection" rule by bringing in Gospel details -- Jesus' 'great deeds and teachings', Jesus' mother -- and evaluating their lack of mention as evidence towards mythicism, despite there being no Gospel details in his formulation for Mminimal Historicity. But I was finding it hard to point it out without having some more comprehensive Historical Jesus model to point to.

I take your point that D-MHJ is less likely than C-MHJ. My purpose though isn't to prove D-MHJ, but to show that Carrier is being inconsistent with his use of C-MHJ. I realise now that I need to be cautious how I do this. Thanks for your insights. :cheers:

Re: GDon's Historical Jesus Theory (updated for Carrier OHJ review)

Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2023 4:27 pm
by GakuseiDon
Peter Kirby wrote: Sat Jul 01, 2023 3:38 pmSo the Galilean followers thought he had ascended to heaven, and someone like Paul interpreted the rest?
There isn't enough information in the letters to understand what the majority believed, AFAICS. We only have what the letter writers believed.
Peter Kirby wrote: Sat Jul 01, 2023 3:38 pmAlright, I guess that works, although it still seems a bit strange.
Naturally it doesn't seem strange to me! :D I've tried to stick to the earliest texts as much as possible, and from them I think I've built a consistent picture, though admittedly one built off minimal data points. One can draw anything from a small number of dots.

What seems strange to you?