Giuseppe wrote: ↑Mon Jul 03, 2023 9:50 am
So Origen:
The Scriptures which are current in the Churches of God do not speak of seven heavens, or of any definite number at all, but they do appear to teach the existence of heavens, whether that means the spheres of those bodies which the Greeks call planets, or something more mysterious. Celsus, too, agreeably to the opinion of Plato, asserts that souls can make their way to and from the earth through the planets; while Moses, our most ancient prophet, says that a divine vision was presented to the view of our prophet Jacob, — a ladder stretching to heaven, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon it, and the Lord supported upon its top — obscurely pointing, by this matter of the ladder, either to the same truths which Plato had in view, or to something greater than these. On this subject Philo has composed a treatise which deserves the thoughtful and intelligent investigation of all lovers of truth.
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/04166.htm
We know what "Plato had in view" thanks to Justin: the
crossing point of the ecliptic and the equator.
Therefore that same celestial cross of Platonic memory was meant by Origen, the latter being supported by the witness of a lost tract by Philo, to be on the top of the celestial ladder in the vision of Jacob.
We also know that either Origen* or Celsus*^ had Plato in view because, in
Contra Celsum, Origen appeals to Plato many times, especially in Book VI ie. the same book that
that^ Chapter 21 excerpt comes from.
(
*or both; if Celsus was more than a sockpuppet)
^ Origen provides what he says are quotes of Celsus referring to or even quoting Plato. For example:
Contra Celsus VII,28
After thus misrepresenting our views of the nature of God,
Celsus goes on to ask of us "where we hope to go after death;" and he makes our answer to be, "to another land better than this." On this
he comments as follows:
The divine men of a former age have spoken of a happy life reserved for the souls of the blessed. Some designated it 'the isles of the blest,' and others 'the Elysian plain,' so called because they were there to be delivered from their present evils. Thus Homer says: 'But the gods shall send you to the Elysian plain, on the borders of the earth, where they lead a most quiet life.' Plato also, who believed in the immortality of the soul, distinctly gives the name 'land' to the place where it is sent. 'The extent of it,' says he, 'is immense, and we only occupy a small portion of it, from the Phasis to the Pillars of Hercules, where we dwell along the shores of the sea, as grasshoppers and frogs beside a marsh. But there are many other places inhabited in like manner by other men. For there are in different parts of the earth cavities, varying in form and in magnitude, into which run water, and clouds, and air. But that land which is pure lies in the pure region of heaven.'
Celsus therefore supposes that what we say of a land which is much better and more excellent than this, has been borrowed from certain ancient writers whom he styles "divine", and chiefly from Plato, who in his
Phædon discourses on the pure land lying in a pure heaven. But he does not see that Moses, who is much older than the Greek literature, introduces God as promising to those who lived according to His law the holy land, which is "a good land and a large, a land flowing with milk and honey;" which promise is not to be understood to refer, as some suppose, to that part of the earth which we call Judea; for it, however good it may be, still forms part of the earth, which was originally cursed for the transgression of Adam ...
.
And
Contra Celsus VII,30
Referring to the passage in the
Phædon of Plato, Celsus says:
"It is not easy for every one to understand the meaning of Plato's words, when he says that on account of our weakness and slowness we are unable to reach the highest region of the air; but that if our nature were capable of so sublime a contemplation, we would then be able to understand that that is the true heaven, and that the true light."
As Celsus has deferred to another opportunity the explanation of Plato's idea, we also think that it does not fall within our purpose at present to enter into any full description of that holy and good land, and of the city of God which is in it; but reserve the consideration of it for our Commentary on the Prophets, having already in part, according to our power, treated of the city of God in our remarks on Psalm 46 and Psalm 48 ...
.
Indeed, Origen starts Book VI with:
In beginning this our sixth book, we desire, my reverend Ambrosius, to answer in it those accusations which Celsus brings against the Christians, not, as might be supposed, those objections which he has adduced from writers on philosophy. For he has quoted a considerable number of passages, chiefly from Plato, and has placed alongside of these such declarations of holy Scripture as are fitted to impress even the intelligent mind; subjoining the assertion that "these things are stated much better among the Greeks (than in the Scriptures), and in a manner which is free from all exaggerations and promises on the part of God, or the Son of God."
.
See also
VI,
6,
8,
9,
10,f
and Origen himself says in
VI,
2:
... For, if I may venture to say so, few have been benefited (if they have indeed been benefited at all) by the beautiful and polished style of Plato and those who have written like him ...
VI,
3 starts:
Let the ancient sages, then, make known their sayings to those who are capable of understanding them. Suppose that Plato, for example, the son of Ariston, in one of his Epistles, is discoursing about "the chief good," and that he says,
The chief good can by no means be described in words, but is produced by long habit, and bursts forth suddenly as a light in the soul, as from a fire which had leapt forth. We, then, on hearing these words, admit that they are well said, for it is God who revealed to men these as well as all other noble expressions.
We, then, on hearing these words, admit that they are well said, for it is God who revealed to men these as well as all other noble expressions.
. 