Jesus Studies Historiography

[outhouse]

There is *a history-of-the-story*; like the history of the King Arthur story,.

Simply not truthful, out of desperation on your part.

Arthur is highly debated for historicity, as to where Jesus holds solid historicity by all accounts.

[outhouse]

There are primary sources: see "No Meek Messiah" by Micael Paulkovich (Paulkovich includes some spurious sources in the 126 sources he lists, though)


.

Known weak polemic

[PhilosopherJay]

Hi outhouse, cienfuegos,

Your narrative is fine, but how do you explain this piece of text I just discovered which tells a completely different story?

Lucian, Thessaloniki, Greece, circa 140 CE
Greek: Now that you Jews have been defeated in the war again, I guess you Jews will admit that your God is pretty weak compared to our Gods Zeus and Mars.
First Christian: Not at all. Bar Kokhbar simply wasn't the real messiah that God sent to lead his chosen people.
Greek: Who was?
First Christian: It was one of those guys in the last century who claimed to be the messiah. The Jews didn't believe him and crucified him. That's why God didn't save the Jews.
Greek: Which one?
First Christian: John the Baptist
Greek: But you said he was crucified by Herod the Great. Why would God be still mad 140 years later?
First Christian: It wasn't exactly John the Baptist, it was some messiah who came after and was a follower of John.
Greek: Who was it?
First Christian: It was a follower of John
Greek: What was his name?
First Christian: It was Simon, no Saul, no Jesus. Yeah, that's the ticket, Jesus. It was definitely Jesus the Christ
Greek: And the Jews crucified this Jesus just as John was crucified.
First Christian: Did I say John was crucified. No John was beheaded, Jesus was crucified.
Greek: You're just making this up as you go along.
First Christian: No, I'm not.
Greek: Why didn't the Jews believe he was the Messiah. They believed everybody else?
First Christian: He didn't do any magic and that was why they didn't believe he was the messiah.
Greek: If he didn't do any magic then how were the Jews supposed to know he was the Messiah.
First Christian: Oh no,I remember now, he did do magic.
Greek: What magic?
First Christian: Really, really great magic. He gave lots and lots of signs that he was the messiah, only the Jews didn't believe him.
Greek: What magic. Name one sign.
First Christian: He raised the dead.
Greek: Who?
First Christian: What was his name? Oh, it was Lazarus. Yep,he raised Lazarus. it was his brother-in-law, Lazarus. He just happened to have the same name as my brother-in-law, Lazarus. He was married to Mary, just by coincidence the same name as my wife, and Mary's brother caught the plague while Jesus was out of town on business, and so Jesus healed him three days after he died.
Greek: Why did they crucify Jesus for raising Lazarus from the dead.
First Christian: They mistakenly thought he was the one who had murdered Lazarus.
Greek: But you just said he was crucified after he raised Lazarus. If he was alive again, why should they care if he murdered him?
First Christian: Yeah, that's right. Nobody liked Lazarus, so they arrested and crucified Jesus.
Greek: What happened after that?
First Christian: God raised Jesus from the dead three days later.
Greek: You just said Lazarus was raised after three days?
First Christian: Yes, of course, you have to wait three days to make sure they're really dead.
Greek: That is silly, why would they crucify him for raising his brother-in-law from the dead.
First Christian: Well,it was really Mary's fault. Nobody liked Jesus' wife.
Greek: That's silly.
First Christian: Well, they had another sister named Martha and nobody liked her either.
Greek: I don't believe this, I'm going.
First Christian: And he threatened to burn down the temple. Yeah, that's why they crucified him, he raised Lazarus, but mostly it was because he threatened to burn down the temple.
Greek: When?
First Christian: In three days.
Greek: You just said Lazarus was raised after three days.
First Christian: But I meant that he was going to rebuild the temple in three days after burning it down.
Greek: You're just making all this stuff up about a Messiah named Jesus.
First Christian: No, I'm not, he did other miracles as well. Yeah, he spit in a blind man's eyes and the blind man was cured.
Greek: Didn't the emperor Vespasian do the same thing before the First War with the Jews? You just stole that story.
First Christian: Well, he wasn't exactly cured. He saw funny shapes and the second time Jesus spit in his eyes, he saw much better. You see, its a completely different story. Jesus spit two times.
Greek: Okay, this is too silly for me. I'm leaving.
First Christian. No, wait, come back. Okay, I'll write the story down and send it to you. I bet you'll believe it after I write it all down.
The Greek walks away and the First Christian starts writing "The Gospel according to Hymie, the Jew. He crosses out Hymie, the Jew and puts in Mark.
First Christian: Mark, that's the ticket.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

So the question would be: How did an apparently rustic rural individual ignite the development of Christianity?

.

Lit the match to bonfire that had its wood already stacked. Hellenistic Judaism had long wanted to divorce cultural Judaism it had worshipped for centuries. The fall of the temple threw gas on this fire.

With almost half a million possible witnesses at Passover. A single man who took on the corrupt government by himself was murdered by Romans keeping peace. His actions viewed as selfless and pure to heart made him a martyred man. Mythology developed and grew enough to find his previous teachings valuable enough that the mythology gained a following, that grew.

[MattMorales]

Great dialogue!

[MrMacSon]

There are primary sources: see "No Meek Messiah" by Micael Paulkovich (Paulkovich includes some spurious sources in the 126 sources he lists, though)

Known weak polemic

The book may be polemic, but many of the historian-sources Paulkovich lists are relevant to your question about primary 1st C historical sources.

[outhouse]

Hi outhouse, cienfuegos,

Your narrative is fine, but how do you explain this piece of text I just discovered which tells a completely different story?
Lucian, Thessaloniki, Greece, circa 140 CE

Nonsense.

[MrMacSon]

There is evidence that some Jews began referring to a suffering servant figure in the past tense (such as in the Wisdom of Solomon) and possibly pre-Christian versions of the Ascension of Isaiah.

Yes, some manumitted slaves were described as the Greek versions of Chrestos or Christos - χρηστός or Χριστός, respectively.

[outhouse]

There is evidence that some Jews began referring to a suffering servant figure in the past tense (such as in the Wisdom of Solomon) and possibly pre-Christian versions of the Ascension of Isaiah.

Yes, some manumitted slaves were described as the Greek versions of Chrestos or Christos - χρηστός or Χριστός, respectively.

You need a credible source.

That is not, he is a known quack.

[outhouse]

There are primary sources: see "No Meek Messiah" by Micael Paulkovich (Paulkovich includes some spurious sources in the 126 sources he lists, though)

Known weak polemic

The book may be polemic, but many of the historian-sources Paulkovich lists are relevant to your question about primary 1st C historical sources.

No, you cannot bring trash to the table and say it applies to anything.

I stated primary sources are not needed, because many do not exist for this timer period and illiterate culture.

Yes we would prefer primary sources, but you ignore out of personal bias of how secondary sources actually are evidence. may not be the best evidence, but it can be factual evidence.

[MrMacSon]

I stated primary sources are not needed, because many do not exist for this timer period and illiterate culture.

then

Yes we would prefer primary sources ...

but when I provide a source of primary-sources, you spit the dummy.

There were dozens of people documenting the 1st C: not all of Paulkovich's were 1st C but many of his 126 sources were!