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Re: Ehrman: Galatians 4:14 casts Jesus as an Angel

Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 5:03 am
by John T
Thanks for the response.

My guess then would be; the conversation was more about the Arian controversy juxtapose to Judaism at the time of Jesus than a proposition by Ehrman that Jesus was an angel.

Hebrews 2:5-9

Sincerely,
John T

Re: Ehrman: Galatians 4:14 casts Jesus as an Angel

Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 11:35 am
by robert j
About Jewish worship of angels ----

Clement of Alexandria cited a document he called the Preaching of Peter ---

“Neither worship him as the Jews for they, who suppose they know god, do not know him, serving angels and archangels, the month and the moon … “ (Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, Book 6, chapter 5).

Clement provided a few direct quotations from a no-longer extant document that I believe represents first-century tradition from a self-identified Jew that believed that a Jesus Christ that had suffered and died at the hands of ancient, pre-Davidic Jews based on finding previously hidden meanings in the Jewish scriptures by means of allegorical midrash (see here viewtopic.php?f=3&t=736 and viewtopic.php?f=3&t=737 )


In relation to Galatians 4:14, I think one should be careful not to read too much into the passage. To claim that Paul meant anything more than comparing himself to a “messenger” from god, or that Paul thought that Jesus was merely an angel, would require more evidence.
MrMacSon wrote: Ehrman's view that
attendee on facebook wrote:"early Christianity saw Jesus only as an 'angel' - not one with God; a view he says developed only much later."
attendee on facebook wrote: Ehrman simply repeated with force his claim that there was a kind of cult of angels in Judaism and that Galatians 4:14* casts Jesus as an angel. Suffice it to say, he has a lot more work to do if he is to convince scholars. The striking thing about this occasion is that it was the 'peer review' that never went into his popular book.

Re: Ehrman: Galatians 4:14 casts Jesus as an Angel

Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 12:08 pm
by outhouse
robert j wrote: In relation to Galatians 4:14, I think one should be careful not to read too much into the passage. To claim that Paul meant anything more than comparing himself to a “messenger” from god, or that Paul thought that Jesus was merely an angel, would require more evidence.
Exactly


I see it as rhetoric personally, and in context, its all about Paul, not Jesus.

And the context as stated in the Op about the use of angel is also up for some serious debate, and without clues, we may never fully know.

Many words context is lost to time.

Re: Ehrman: Galatians 4:14 casts Jesus as an Angel

Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 12:42 pm
by MrMacSon
John T wrote: You quoted Ehrman from the conference. Do you also have a video link?
No; I posted all I had found thus far.
John T wrote:
"4. The suggestion that Jesus was thought of as an “angel” is also an interesting one. Here too, it must be asked whether that meant Jesus had been “angelified” by exaltation, rather like Enoch in some literature, or had pre-existed as an angel before appearing on Earth. However, given that this is the sole explicit use of angelos in reference to Jesus, we must consider whether here it has its specific meaning of celestial spiritual messenger, or simply means “messenger.”[5] In context, Paul saying that the Galatians had accepted him, despite his illness, as a messenger of God, even as God’s supreme messenger Jesus Christ, would make perfect sense. And so the question in this instance is once again how to relate what Paul says here to other evidence about his Christology."...James F. McGrath/patheos.com
[5] So F. F. Bruce, also Theodor Zahn and Sam K. Williams. Either way this statement will stand out within Paul’s letters, since there is no clear usage by Paul of angelos in reference to human messengers, although that meaning has been proposed for 1 Cor. 11 (see for instance Alan G. Padgett, ‘Paul on Women in the Church: The Contradictions of Coiffure in 1 Corinthians 11.2-16’, JSNT 20 (1984) 69-86); but likewise there is no other instance of Jesus being called an “angel.” It is also to be noted that here it would indeed be circular to suggest that Paul could not mean “messenger” here because he does not use angelos with that meaning elsewhere, since the word genuinely means both and so would be natural to use in either sense.

Re: Ehrman: Galatians 4:14 casts Jesus as an Angel

Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 12:45 pm
by MrMacSon
robert j wrote: In relation to Galatians 4:14, I think one should be careful not to read too much into the passage. To claim that Paul meant anything more than comparing himself to a “messenger” from god, or that Paul thought that Jesus was merely an angel, would require more evidence.
The end of Galatians 4 refers to allegory too
Galatians 4 (KJV)
19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.

21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
and Hebrews 2 also refers to angels -
2 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.

2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;

3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?

7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Re: Ehrman: Galatians 4:14 casts Jesus as an Angel

Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 12:58 pm
by MrMacSon
maryhelena wrote:
MrMacSon wrote:.
There was a session at the AAR/SBL conference in San Diego where several scholars critiqued Bart Ehrman's book How Jesus Became God
  • viz. Craig Evans, Michael Bird, Larry Hurtado, Dale Martin, and James McGrath.
Nothing new here....The response book to Ehrman' "How Jesus Became God" was out around the same time.
The points I am making are
  • a. Ehrman's claim that there was a kind of cult of angels in Judaism and that Galatians 4:14 casts Jesus as an angel
    b. Ehrman's view that "early Christianity saw Jesus only as an 'angel' - not one with God; a view he says developed only much later."
    c. this view of Erhman was, apparently, peer-reviewed out of his book - was that censorship??

Re: Ehrman: Galatians 4:14 casts Jesus as an Angel

Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 2:14 pm
by toejam
^But this view of Ehrman's is in the book. I'm confused why you're saying it was peer-reviewed out of it?

Re: Ehrman: Galatians 4:14 casts Jesus as an Angel

Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 2:24 pm
by maryhelena
MrMacSon wrote:
maryhelena wrote:
MrMacSon wrote:.
There was a session at the AAR/SBL conference in San Diego where several scholars critiqued Bart Ehrman's book How Jesus Became God
  • viz. Craig Evans, Michael Bird, Larry Hurtado, Dale Martin, and James McGrath.
Nothing new here....The response book to Ehrman' "How Jesus Became God" was out around the same time.
The points I am making are
  • a. Ehrman's claim that there was a kind of cult of angels in Judaism and that Galatians 4:14 casts Jesus as an angel
    b. Ehrman's view that "early Christianity saw Jesus only as an 'angel' - not one with God; a view he says developed only much later."
    c. this view of Erhman was, apparently, peer-reviewed out of his book - was that censorship??
I'm not getting this bit about something being "peer-reviewed" out of Ehrman's book.


I HAVE READ, PONDERED, researched, taught, and written about the writings of Paul for forty years, but until recently there was one key aspect of his theology I could never quite get my mind around. I had the hardest time understanding how, exactly, Paul viewed Christ. Some aspects of Paul’s Christological teaching have been clear to me for decades— especially his teaching that it was Jesus’s death and resurrection that makes a person right with God, rather than following the dictates of the Jewish law. But who did Paul think Christ was?

One reason for my perplexity was that Paul is highly allusive in what he says. He does not spell out in systematic detail his views of Christ. Another reason was that in some passages Paul seems to affirm a view of Christ that, until recently, I thought could not possibly exist as early as Paul’s letters, which are our first Christian writings to survive. How could Paul embrace “higher” views of Christ than those found in later writings such as Matthew, Mark, and Luke? Didn’t Christology develop from a “low” Christology to a “high” Christology over time? And if so, shouldn’t the views of the Synoptic Gospels be “higher” than the views of Paul? But they’re not! They are “lower.” And I simply did not get it, for the longest time.

But now I do. It is not a question of “higher” or “lower.” The Synoptics simply accept a Christological view that is different from Paul’s. They hold to exaltation Christologies, and Paul holds to an incarnation Christology. That, in no small measure, is because Paul understood Christ to be an angel who became a human.

Christ as an Angel in Paul

Many people no doubt have the same experience I do on occasion, of reading something over and over and not having it register. I have read Paul’s letter to the Galatians hundreds of times in both English and Greek. But the clear import of what he says in Galatians 4: 14 simply never registered with me, until, frankly, a few months ago. In this verse Paul calls Christ an
angel. The reason it never registered with me is that the statement is a bit obscure, and I had always interpreted it in an alternative way. Thanks to the work of other scholars, I now see the error of my ways.

In the context of the verse, Paul is reminding the Galatians of how they first received him when he was ill in their midst and they helped restore him to health. Paul writes : “Even though my bodily condition was a test for you, you did not mock or despise me, but you received me as an angel of God, as Jesus Christ.”

I had always read the verse to say that the Galatians had received Paul in his infirm state the way they would have received an angelic visitor, or even Christ himself. In fact, however, the grammar of the Greek suggests something quite different. As Charles Gieschen has argued, and has now been affirmed in a book on Christ as an angel by New Testament specialist Susan Garrett, the verse is not saying that the Galatians received Paul as an angel or as Christ; it is saying that they received him as they would an angel, such as Christ. By clear implication, then, Christ is an angel.

Ehrman, Bart D. (2014-03-25). How Jesus Became God: The Exaltation of a Jewish Preacher from Galilee (pp. 252-253). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.

my formatting

Thus, Ehrman has a Pauline incarnation Christology and a Synoptic gospel exaltation Christology. Methinks he will not be persuaded, any time soon, to drop either of these two positions. A point that Carrier would do well to take notice off: There are two Jesus stories in the NT. A Pauline story and a gospel story. Two very different stories that need to be considered on their own merits. Attempts to run with one story and drop the other, as though one story has priority over the other - is to shortchange research into early christian origins.

Re: Ehrman: Galatians 4:14 casts Jesus as an Angel

Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 2:25 pm
by maryhelena
toejam wrote:^But this view of Ehrman's is in the book. I'm confused why you're saying it was peer-reviewed out of it?
Yep, me also......

Re: Ehrman: Galatians 4:14 casts Jesus as an Angel

Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 2:32 pm
by MrMacSon
maryhelena wrote:
toejam wrote:^But this view of Ehrman's is in the book. I'm confused why you're saying it was peer-reviewed out of it?
Yep, me also......
I was repeating this assertion, as quoted
attendee on facebook wrote: Ehrman simply repeated with force his claim that there was a kind of cult of angels in Judaism and that Galatians 4:14 casts Jesus as an angel. Suffice it to say, he has a lot more work to do if he is to convince scholars. The striking thing about this occasion is that it was the 'peer review' that never went into his popular book.
Thanks for posting that passage, maryhelena -
maryhelena wrote:
Christ as an Angel in Paul
..... <snip>
"In the context of the verse [Gal 4:14], Paul is reminding the Galatians of how they first received him when he was ill in their midst and they helped restore him to health. Paul writes : 'Even though my bodily condition was a test for you, you did not mock or despise me, but you received me as an angel of God, as Jesus Christ.'

"I had always read the verse to say that the Galatians had received Paul in his infirm state the way they would have received an angelic visitor, or even Christ himself. In fact, however, the grammar of the Greek suggests something quite different. As Charles Gieschen has argued, and has now been affirmed in a book on Christ as an angel by New Testament specialist Susan Garrett, the verse is not saying that the Galatians received Paul as an angel or as Christ; it is saying that they received him as they would an angel, such as Christ. By clear implication, then, Christ is an angel."

Ehrman, Bart D. (2014-03-25). How Jesus Became God: The Exaltation of a Jewish Preacher from Galilee (pp. 252-253). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.