DEMONSTRATION THAT NO SUCH PERSON AS JESUS CHRIST EVER EXISTED

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Giuseppe
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DEMONSTRATION THAT NO SUCH PERSON AS JESUS CHRIST EVER EXISTED

Post by Giuseppe »


DEMONSTRATION THAT NO SUCH PERSON AS JESUS CHRIST EVER EXISTED

There were two very different opinions concerning Christ very early among Christians. Some, as Augustin says, believed Christ to be God, and denied him to be man; others believed he was a man, and denied him to be God. The former was the opinion of the Manichees, and of many others before them: of others so early, indeed, and so certainly, that Cotelerius, in a note on Ignatius's Epistle to the Trallians, assures us that it would be as absurd as to question that the sun shone at mid-day, to deny that the doctrine that taught that Christ's body was a phantom only, and that no such person as Jesus Christ had ever any corporeal existence, was held in the time of the apostles themselves Ignatius, the apostolic Father expressly censures this opinion, as having gained ground even before hit time. " If, as some who are atheists — that is, unbelievers— say, that he only suffered in appearance,"— an expression which, as Cetelerius observes, plainly shows the early rise of this doctrine. And from the apostolic age downwards, in a never interrupted succession, but never so strongly and emphatically as in the most primitive times, was the existence of Christ as a man most strenuously denied. So that though nothing is so convenient to some persons as to assume airs of contempt, and to cry out that those who deny that such a person as Jesus of Nazareth ever existed, are utterly unworthy of being answered, and would fly in the face of all historical evidence, the fact of the case is, that the being of no other individual mentioned in history ever laboured under such a deficiency of evidence as to its reality, or was ever overset by a thousandth part of the weight of proof positive, that it was a creation of imagination only.

To the question, then, on what grounds do you deny that such a person as Jesus Christ existed as a man ? the proper answer is:

Because his existence as a man has, from the earliest day on which it can be shown to have been asserted, been as earnestly and strenuously denied, and that, not by enemies of the Christian name, or unbelievers of the Christian faith, but by the most intelligent, most learned, most sincere of the Christian name, whoever left the world proofs of their intelligence and learning in their writings, and of their sincerity in their sufferings;

And because the existence of no individual of the human race, that was real and positive, was ever, by a like conflict of jarring evidence, rendered equivocal and uncertain.

https://archive.org/stream/diegesis00un ... g_djvu.txt
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billd89
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Re: DEMONSTRATIO

Post by billd89 »

I want this Demonstratio in Latin, Powerpoint format.
You are Italian, I use Microsoft products, therefore my Right to demand this.
rgprice
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Re: DEMONSTRATION THAT NO SUCH PERSON AS JESUS CHRIST EVER EXISTED

Post by rgprice »

What exactly is this source, and what is this quote?
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MrMacSon
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Re: DEMONSTRATION THAT NO SUCH PERSON AS JESUS CHRIST EVER EXISTED

Post by MrMacSon »

This is from a book by The Reverend R. Taylor titled, "The Diegesis."

It's subtitled:
"being a discovery of the origin, evidences, and early history of Christianity, never yet before or elsewhere so fully and faithfully set forth"

First edition, London, 1829.
Though there are published versions of various, mostly 19th century dates, eg. Boston, J. P. Mendum, 1883:

https://www.loc.gov/item/32031785/, the US Library of Congress version. The pdf version there is a scan of an original, not text of a version as the version at archive.org is (it's an 1845 Third Edition).
.
Last edited by MrMacSon on Mon Aug 07, 2023 3:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Paul the Uncertain
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Re: DEMONSTRATION THAT NO SUCH PERSON AS JESUS CHRIST EVER EXISTED

Post by Paul the Uncertain »

While I think there is a fine topic to be had in how to understand ancient docetists' conception of Jesus, the belief that he was not a man doesn't bear in a simple way on whether he was one or not.

Why is arch-historicist Bart Ehrman comfortable with his conviction that Paul thought Jesus was an angel? Because the probability that an ancient might think a real person was an angel isn't zero. It is not even clear, pace Carrier, that

Prob( ur-Chrsitians thought Jesus was an angel | Jesus was a real man who actually lived ) <
Prob( ur-Christians thought Jesus was an angel | Jesus was a fictional or mythological character )

If some ancients thought that angels were capable of intervening in human history while "passing" as human beings, then an ancient belief that an angelic Jesus lacked a body doesn't rule out a real human being who inspired such thoughts. Hell, even today, orthodox Christians profess that Jesus has no human father, but that he's a human being in full anyway.

If Jesus can be a real human being while supposedly lacking a human father, then he can be a real human being while supposedly lacking a human body just as well. Maybe better, since then we don't have to wonder how Mary came up with a Y chromosome when all she had in stock were X's.
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MrMacSon
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Re: DEMONSTRATION THAT NO SUCH PERSON AS JESUS CHRIST EVER EXISTED

Post by MrMacSon »

Giuseppe wrote: Mon Aug 07, 2023 7:03 am

DEMONSTRATION THAT NO SUCH PERSON AS JESUS CHRIST EVER EXISTED

There were two very different opinions concerning Christ very early among Christians. Some, as Augustin says,1 believed Christ to be God, and denied him to be man; others believed he was a man, and denied him to be God. The former was the opinion of the Manichees, and of many others before them: of others so early, indeed, and so certainly, that Cotelerius, in a note on Ignatius's Epistle to the Trallians, assures us that it would be as absurd as to question that the sun shone at mid-day,2 to deny that the doctrine that taught that Christ's body was a phantom only, and that no such person as Jesus Christ had ever any corporeal existence, was held in the time of the apostles themselves.3 Ignatius, the apostolic Father expressly censures this opinion, as having gained ground even before hit time. " If, as some who are atheists — that is, unbelievers— say, that he only suffered in appearance",4— an expression which, as Cetelerius observes, plainly shows the early rise of this doctrine. And from the apostolic age downwards, in a never interrupted succession, but never so strongly and emphatically as in the most primitive times, was the existence of Christ as a man most strenuously denied. So that though nothing is so convenient to some persons as to assume airs of contempt, and to cry out that those who deny that such a person as Jesus of Nazareth ever existed, are utterly unworthy of being answered, and would fly in the face of all historical evidence, the fact of the case is, that the being of no other individual mentioned in history ever laboured under such a deficiency of evidence as to its reality, or was ever overset by a thousandth part of the weight of proof positive, that it was a creation of imagination only.

To the question, then, on what grounds do you deny that such a person as Jesus Christ existed as a man ? the proper answer is:

Because his existence as a man has, from the earliest day on which it can be shown to have been asserted, been as earnestly and strenuously denied, and that, not by enemies of the Christian name, or unbelievers of the Christian faith, but by the most intelligent, most learned, most sincere of the Christian name, whoever left the world proofs of their intelligence and learning in their writings, and of their sincerity in their sufferings;

And because the existence of no individual of the human race, that was real and positive, was ever, by a like conflict of jarring evidence, rendered equivocal and uncertain.


https://archive.org/stream/diegesis00un ... g_djvu.txt
  1. Ait enim Christus Deus est tantum, omnino hominis nihil habens. Hoc Manichaei dicunt. Photiani, homo tantum. Manichei. Deus tantum. — August. Serm. 37, c. 12.
  2. As absurd as to question that the sun shone, &c. Solem negaret meridie .ucere, qui Docetas, seu phantasiastas haereticos temporibus apostolorum inficiaretur erupisse.— Cotel. ad Ign. Ep, ad Trall, c. 10.
  3. Apostolis adhuc in seculo superstitibus, adhuc apud Judaeum Christi sanguine recenti, phantasma Domini corpus asserebatur.—Hieron. adv. Lucif. T. 4. P. 304.
  4. Ει δε ωσπεQ τινες υ9εοι οντες τουτ’εστιν απιστοι, λεγουσιν το δοχειν πεπον9εναι αιτον χ.τ. λ.— Ign. ad Trall, c. 16, et passim

The next segment:


Charge 4

It was distinctly charged against the early preachers of Christianity that they had adapted and transferred to their own use the materials they found prepared to their hands, in the writings of the ancient poets and philosophers ; and by giving a very slight turn to the matter, and a mere change of names, had vamped up a patchwork of mythology and ethics, a mixture of the Oriental Gnosticism and the Greek Philosophy, into a system which they were for foisting upon the world as matter of a divine revelation that had been especially revealed to themselves.

"All these figments of cracked-brained opiniatry and silly solaces played off in the sweetness of song by deceitful poets, by you too credulous creatures, have been shamefully reformed and made over to your own God".* Such is the objection of Coecilius, in the Octavius of Minucius Felix, written in dialogue, about the year 211.

A charge answered by admission, rather than denial, and corroborated by the never-to-be forgotten fact, that the Egyptian Therapeuts in their university of Alexandria, where first Christianity gained an establishment, were professedly followers and maintainers of the Eclectic philosophy, which consisted in nothing else but this very overt and avowed practice of bringing together whatever they held to be useful and good in all other systems ; and thus, as they pretended, concentrating all the rays of truth that were scattered through the world into the common centre of their own system. This is fully admitted by Lactantius, Arnobius, Clemens Alexandrinus, and Origen: and denied by none who have ventured fearlessly to investigate the real origin of Christianity.

* 'Omnia ista figmenta malesanae opinionis, et inepta solatia, a poetis fallacibus, in dulcedine carminis lusa, a vobis nimium credulis in Deum vestrum, turpiter reformata sunt.' — Minucius Felix in Apol.
____________

Charge 5

Porphyry, whose very name is aconite to Christian intolerance, objects against Origen; that, being really a Pagan, and brought up in the schools of the Gentiles, he had, to serve his own ambitious purposes, contrived to turn the whole Pagan system, which he had first egregiously corrupted, into the new-fangled theology of Christians.

(Porphyry.—Theoderet calls him Ασπονδος ηυον νπολεμιος, And Ο παντων ημιν εχ9ιστνσ. Augustin calls him "Christianorum acerrimus inimicus".)
____________

Charge 6

Celsus, in so much of his work concerning the "true Logos," as Origen has thought proper to suffer posterity to become acquainted with, charges the Christians with a recoinage of the misunderstood doctrine of the ancient Logos [Quasi refingernet—Τα τον παλυιον λογου παγαχουσματα.—Lib.3].

Charges thus affecting the character of Origen, the great pillar of the Christian church, cannot fall innocent of [a] wound on Christianity itself. Origen is the very first of all the Fathers who has presented us with a catalogue of the books contained in the New Testament. He was the most laborious of all writers; and his authoritative pen alone competent to produce every iota of variation which existed between the old Pagan legends of the Egyptian Therapeuts and that new version of them which first received from him the designation of the New Testament.^

... ^ See the Chapter on Origen
____________

ADMISSIONS OF BISHOP HERBERT MARSH

Bishop Marsh, in his Michaelis, the highest authority we could possibly appeal to on this subject,a admits that, "it is a certain fact, that several readings in our common printed text are nothing more than alterations made by Origen, whose authority was so great in the Christian church, that emendations which he proposed, though, as he himself acknowledges, they were supported by the evidence of no manuscript, were very generally received".b The reader will do himself the justice to recollect, that Origen lived and wrote in the third century, and that "no manuscript of the New Testament now extant is prior to the sixth century; and, what is to be lamented, various readings which, as appears from the quotations of the Fathers, were in the text of the Greek Testament, are to be found in none of the manuscripts which are at present remaining".c
  1. "The introduction to the New Testament by Michaelis, late professor at Gottingen, as translated by Marsh, is the standard work, comprehending all that is important on the subject." — The learned Bishop of Llandaff, quoted in Elsley's Annotations on the Gospels, vol. 1. (the introd.), p. xxvi.
  2. Michaelis's Introduction to New Test., by Bishop Marsh, vol. 2, p 368
  3. Ibid, vol.2, p.160.
https://archive.org/stream/diegesis00un ... g_djvu.txt
and https://tile.loc.gov/storage-services/p ... tayl_0.pdf


Last edited by MrMacSon on Tue Aug 08, 2023 10:49 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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billd89
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Re: DEMONSTRATIO

Post by billd89 »

Paul the Uncertain wrote: Mon Aug 07, 2023 2:46 pmWhy is arch-historicist Bart Ehrman comfortable with his conviction that Paul thought Jesus was an angel? Because the probability that an ancient might think a real person was an angel isn't zero. ...

If some ancients thought that angels were capable of intervening in human history while "passing" as human beings, then an ancient belief that an angelic Jesus lacked a body doesn't rule out a real human being who inspired such thoughts. Hell, even today, orthodox Christians profess that Jesus has no human father, but that he's a human being in full anyway.
Do you believe that 4 out of 5 dentists ever recommended Trident for their patients who chew gum? Well, now, here's a very recent study:

Forget Ancients. According to a AP-NORC poll (July 2023), 7 in 10 Americans believe in angels!!!

American’s belief in angels (69%) is about on par with belief in Heaven and the power of prayer, but bested by belief in God or a Higher Power (79%).


Image

If angels exist, then Jesus could have also. (I agree w/ you: the phenomenon is basically the same.)

I always wondered about those giant sea-gull wings, tho.
lclapshaw
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Re: DEMONSTRATION THAT NO SUCH PERSON AS JESUS CHRIST EVER EXISTED

Post by lclapshaw »

^ Why is that one getting ready to push those children off that cliff?
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billd89
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Re: DEMONSTRATIO

Post by billd89 »

Ushering infants to meet Jeebus? (Blame the Sin of a Working Mother, not dutifully caring for her own children.)

Do I have to do all your thinking for you? Someone must be blamed/there has to be a Reason, it's all God's Plan, etc. etc. The Answer to GRIEF.

Mark 10:14 "Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the Kingdom of God belongs to such as these."

That Angel is doing Service-work. "Holy Holy Holy God" ...
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billd89
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Re: "Spiritual, Not Religious"

Post by billd89 »

This is largely a Postwar terminological distinction established/popularized by Alcoholics Anonymous and the dozens of other Twelve Step Fellowships that emerged after the 1950s. If 7% of the population experiences addiction (NIH stat), and ~35% of the population is impacted overall, the outsized influence of this particular 1930s "Higher Power" ideology might translate to ~10% of Americans using that jargon 80+ years later, yes.

That "Spiritual, Not Religious" distinction is largely derived from AA rhetoric:
https://www.npr.org/2023/12/07/12178555 ... -spiritual
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