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How Krijbolder confutes definitely G.A. Wells and Ellegard?
Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2023 9:59 am
by Giuseppe
Simply, by pointing out that the story of Jesus couldn't be re-written under a different temporal reference, since it is said explicitly that the disciples "left" 'John the Baptist' (= Qumran) and they joined "Jesus" (the new ideology).
Re: How Krijbolder confutes definitely G.A. Wells and Ellegard?
Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2023 11:10 am
by StephenGoranson
Whether John the Baptist had been at or with Qumran at some time is a debated question. If so, he may have left it. In other words, saying "John the Baptist = Qumran" may be misleading or overstated.
Re: How Krijbolder confutes definitely G.A. Wells and Ellegard?
Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2023 8:42 pm
by Giuseppe
At contrary, the modern trend to separate John the Baptist from Qumran betrayes only the fear by some pseudo-scholars (but real Christian apologists) that John the Baptist becomes absorbed in Qumran so much that he is reduced to be the mere symbolical icon of Qumran.
Re: How Krijbolder confutes definitely G.A. Wells and Ellegard?
Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2023 4:40 am
by StephenGoranson
John the Baptist and Qumran have some similarities and have some differences.
If you, Giuseppe, wish to deny that statement, there may be some more appropriate
way.
[added later:]
A range of views on John the Baptist are available in this 2021 conference:
http://enochseminar.org/online-2021
Re: How Krijbolder confutes definitely G.A. Wells and Ellegard?
Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2023 5:46 am
by Giuseppe
My strong suspicion that what I have written above is true (apologetical agenda behind the separation between Qumran and John the Baptist), derives from the knowledge of the best case against the historicity of John the Baptist, based precisely on his being a mere symbol of Qumran, and nothing else.
Stones, as the English proverb runs, are never thrown but at the fruit-laden tree.
Re: How Krijbolder confutes definitely G.A. Wells and Ellegard?
Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2023 5:57 am
by StephenGoranson
"....precisely....and nothing else."
Such dogma.
Re: How Krijbolder confutes definitely G.A. Wells and Ellegard?
Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2023 8:56 am
by Baley
Ha Giuseppe, you never cease to amaze me. How on earth did you happen to read Pierre Krijbolder, it's pretty niche. I think much of his ideas are pretty speculative but he makes some very interesting observations, including the one you've posted.
Re: How Krijbolder confutes definitely G.A. Wells and Ellegard?
Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2023 8:07 am
by Giuseppe
Indeed the Krijbolder's point is that he denies this claim:
At contrary, Krijbolder claims that the reversal happens:
The difference is giant, since the Krijbolder's scenario implies that the lack of a slaughtered lamb forced the Christians to invent Jesus posing as the slaughtered lamb.
It was a historical
accident, the situation when early Essene heretics, under persecution, were obliged to use
bread in the place of a slaughtered lamb, to celebrate the Passover. Hence they discovered Isaiah 53:7.