Envisioning the beginnings of Jesus worship

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rgprice
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Envisioning the beginnings of Jesus worship

Post by rgprice »

I apologize for having created a few rambling threads recently, but I'm trying to think through the beginnings of Paul's ministry and origins of Jesus worship.

I begin actually with a passage from 1 Maccabees 1:
11 In those days certain renegades came out from Israel and misled many, saying, “Let us go and make a covenant with the nations around us, for since we separated from them many disasters have come upon us.” 12 This proposal pleased them, 13 and some of the people eagerly went to the king, who authorized them to observe the ordinances of the nations. 14 So they built a gymnasium in Jerusalem according to the customs of the nations, 15 and made foreskins for themselves, and abandoned the holy covenant. They joined with the nations and sold themselves to do evil.

1 Maccabees is written from the perspective of the Hasmonaean rulers who had succeeded in overthrowing Greek authority and establishing an independent Jewish kingdom. The account describes a situation in which Jews had lived as subjects of the Ptolemaic and Seleucid administrations for over a century. According to the account, many Jews by this time were adopting Hellenistic culture and abandoning elements of their Jewish heritage.

As can be expected under such circumstances, factions grew within the society, with some members of the society adopting the ways of the occupying culture, which in many cases offered more freedoms, economic advantages, education, technological advances, etc. Other factions in these situations are angered and saddened by the loss of their heritage and traditions. This scenario has played out over and over again throughout history, especially during the age of exploration and colonization of the fifteenth through nineteenth centuries, and of course even in modern times in places like Afghanistan, Bosnia, American Samoa, etc.

Josephus does not really describe such a dynamic leading up to the First Jewish-Roman War, however, it surely existed within Jewish society at this time as well. The writings of Josephus, while they do acknowledge some Jewish factions, present a relatively unified Jewish people living under Roman occupation following Pompey's takeover of Jerusalem in 63 BCE.

Yet significant evidence, even from the works of Josephus, indicates that, just as in so many other similar circumstances, many Jews living within the Roman empire and throughout Palestine under Roman governance increasingly adopted Roman ways of life and became less concerned with following Jewish law and traditions. By the mid-first-century Palestine had been under Roman governance for about a century. No doubt many Jewish youth were becoming increasingly Romanized and less interested in adhering to the strictures of Jewish law.

This situation seems to be what Paul is describing in Galatians:

13 You have heard, no doubt, of my earlier life in Judaism. I was violently persecuting the assembly of God and was trying to destroy it. 14 I advanced in Judaism beyond many among my people of the same age, for I was far more zealous for the traditions of my ancestors.

Paul was a Proud Boy flighting against Wokeism. Indeed, it appears that Paul was a Zealot.

In Jewish War Josephus tells us:
However, Ananus's concern was this, to lay aside, for a while, the preparations for the war, and to persuade the seditious to consult their own interest, and to restrain the madness of those that had the name of zealots; but their violence was too hard for him; and what end he came to we shall relate hereafter.


and excited them against the zealots; for that was the name they went by, as if they were zealous in good undertakings, and were not rather zealous in the worst actions, and extravagant in them beyond the example of others.

Paul was a college Republican who was busy in his youth bullying the pot smokers, the interracial couples, the gay kids, and the kids listening to K-Pop. Romanizing Jews who were abandoning the law and circumcision, were disrespecting God, and were a threat to Judaism as Paul saw it. But then Paul had a revelation. He realized that this new "weak" form of Judaism was not just a way of Romanizing Jews, it also provided opportunities to Judaize Romans. So Paul realized that since this new form of Judaism was more compatible with Roman culture, it would also be more easily adopted by Gentiles as well.

So Paul went from trying to root out and fight against this Romanized form of Judaism within Judea to spreading this Romanized form of Judaism beyond Judea. It is clear, however, from Paul's remarks, that this Romanized form of Judaism was never really underground in Judea. It existed out in the open. Some Jews were no doubt unhappy with these Romanized versions of Judaism, but they weren't banned, and no doubt had Roman support.

21 Then I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia. 22 I was still unknown by sight to the assemblies of Judea which are in Christ; 23 but they only kept hearing, “The man who once persecuted us is now preaching the faith which he once tried to destroy.” 24 And they were glorifying God because of me.

So what were these assemblies that were "in Christ"? What were the teachings of this Romanized version of Judaism?

It would seem that Jews who were "in Christ" were non-messianic Jews who did not believe in prophecies about the coming of a human military messiah who would deliver the Jewish people either to military world domination or to the reestablishment of an autonomous Jewish state. The messiah was not a future human being, he was a heavenly being who had already liberated mankind. This version of Judaism no longer thought it necessary to follow Jewish law or practice circumcision.

This brings us to why Paul would have associated his zeal for persecution with his Jewish identity. Paul's zealousness was an expression of resistance to Romanization. Harassment of those who were "in Christ" was a form of Jewish patriotism/nationalism that expressed devotion to traditional Jewish values.

4 If anyone else has reason to be confident in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, a member of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the assembly [of God]; as to righteousness under the law, blameless. 7 Yet whatever gains I had, these I have come to regard as loss because of Christ. 8 More than that, I regard everything as loss because of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord.

So in his youth Paul held to the traditional values of Judaism. Adhering to the law and tradition was the greatest good. But what was the circumstance of Paul's revelation? I would argue that it wasn't "a vision", rather it was an understanding of scripture. Jesus Christ was revealed to Paul by a eureka moment in Paul's understanding of scripture. And that eureka moment was Paul's realization that God and Lord, or Elohim and Yahweh, were two separate entities, that Yahweh was the son of Elohim.

This was likely what was was being taught by the "assembly of God", but it wasn't until Paul saw it for himself in the scriptures that he got on board. I speculate that the "assembly of God" was a Jewish/Roman mystery cult. Our understanding of mystery cults is rather limited, but we do know that what appears to be one of the themes of at least some Greek mystery cults was a teaching that all or some of the gods are one. For example the Derveni Papyrus states:

Earth (Gē), Mother (Mētēr), Rhea, and Hera are one and the same. She was called Earth (Gē) by convention; Mother, because all things are born from her; Gē and Gaia, according to each one’s dialect. She was named Demeter, just like Gē-mētēr: one name from both, for it was the same.

The Derveni Papyrus details how to read Orphic works allegorically and to understand the hidden meaning in the Orphic scriptures. What I suspect is that the "assembly of God" was a Romanized/Jewish mystery religion that taught a "secret reading" of the Jewish scriptures which was rooted in separating the identity of Elohim and YHWH.

This realization was the revelation of Jesus to Paul. It was this mystery cult that likely originated the use of the nomina sacra for God, Lord, Christ and Jesus, and these probably played some role in their teaching about the revelation of ΚΣ ΙΣ ΧΣ son of ΘΣ.

So Paul likely learned something about the teachings of this mystery cult he was persecuting and then had a revelation on his own through his reading of the scriptures in which he "realized the truth" of the mystery cult's teachings.

Thus Paul converted from Zealot to Romanizer. He then began to evangelize his own version of these teachings to Gentiles, and in so doing, spreading this Romanized way of worshiping the Jewish God, which Paul viewed as the greatest good.

Paul ends up being arrested. For what we don't know. Could have been anything. He could have been arrested for stealing money, for scamming people, for blasphemy, whatever. Its not clear where Paul was arrested. Could have been in Jerusalem, or anywhere in Asia Minor. But as a Roman citizen Paul gets himself extradited to Rome.

But, then the First Jewish-Roman War breaks out. The war is a result, at least in part, of growing tensions between conversative Jewish elements like the Zealots and the loss of Jewish identity in Palestine.

After the war, a collection of Pauline writings is put together and published. This was like a collection of letters to "seven churches", or "seven assemblies of God", consisting of Galatians, Corinthians 1 & 2, Romans, Thessalonians 1 & 2, Laodiceans, Colossians (with Philemon), and Philippians. This writing was prefixed by a brief introductory narrative that gave some context to the work. That narrative probably looked something like the following:

Writings of the Emissary Paul to the Seven Assemblies of God

The assemblies of Galatia accepted the true teaching first from the Emissary, but after his departure were tempted by false emissaries to turn to the Law and to circumcision. The Emissary recalls these people to the trust of truth, writing to them from Ephesus.

The Colossians also likewise heard the true teaching from the Emissary and were perverted by various false emissaries, some by the wordy eloquence of philosophy, others led on by the sect of the Jewish Law. The Emissary recalls these people to the true and evangelical wisdom, writing to them from Ephesus.

The Romans were reached beforehand by false emissaries and under the name of our lord Jesus Christos had been led on to the Law and the Prophets. The Emissary recalls these people to the true and evangelical faith, writing to them from Athens.

The Thessalonians accepted the true teaching, persevered in the faith even under persecution from their own citizens; and moreover they did not accept what was said by false emissaries. The Emissary congratulates these people, writing to them from Athens.

The Laodiceans had been reached beforehand by false emissaries, and the Emissary himself does not come to them; but he corrects them by a letter, writing to them from Ephesus, where he was imprisoned.

The Colossians had also been reached beforehand by false emissaries, and the Emissary himself does not come to them; but he corrects them also by a letter. For they had heard his word from Archippus, who also accepted a service to them. So the Emissary, already in bonds, writes to them from Ephesus.

The Philippians accepted the true teaching of the Emissary, persevered in the faith and they did not receive false emissaries. The Emissary congratulates these people, writing to them from prison at Rome by Epaphroditus.

From this we can see that what appears to have been going on was that there was an on-going conflict over whether these assemblies were those of proselytes or Jewish converts and whether they could be considered to be part of the Abrahamic covenant or not. These were likely congregations of proselytes that started claiming they were full fledged Jews and then were informed that they needed to get circumcised, follow the law and tithe to the Temple if they were going to consider themselves Jews. But Paul and other apostles reassured them that they didn't need to, and was likely averting money from the Jerusalem Temple. This may ultimately be what Paul was arrested over. Paul was trying to collect money himself that other Jews argued was owed to the Temple.

After the war this letter collection was published with some minor introductory narrative to explain what the letter collection was and give it context. We can speculate further from here, but I can leave it here for now.

So this basically envisions an origin of "Jesus worship" within the context of a Romanized Jewish mystery cult that had adopted a Gentile-friendly version of Judaism that abandoned many Jewish strictures and was more compatible with Roman life. This group taught that YHWH was the son of Elohim. Paul, as a "zealous Jew", persecuted such Jews as traitors to their heritage. But Paul came around to their reading of the scriptures and "saw" that YHWH, by the name of ΙΣ, was indeed the son of ΘΣ. This movement was likely part of a larger overall Romanization of Judaism that had been on-going during the century of Roman governance of Palestine, which had been leading to growing rifts within Jewish society between "zealous" Jewish conservatives and Romanizing Jews. Zealous Jewish conservatives saw the harassment and persecution of these liberal Romanizing Jews as a patriotic duty.

This rift culminated in the outbreak of the First Jewish-Roman War. After the war, Paul's legacy as someone who had worked to unite Jews and Romans was eulogized by the publication of a collection of his supposed letters. That letter collection then ultimately ignited what came to be known as Christianity, as new narratives were produced to go along with the letter collection.
Last edited by rgprice on Thu Sep 21, 2023 4:21 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Envisioning the beginnings of Jesus worship

Post by Giuseppe »

The general tenor of this your post seems to point out that Paul was really the 'founder' of Christianity.

What do you think about the Pillars preceding Paul? Did they hallucinate already a Jesus?
rgprice
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Re: Envisioning the beginnings of Jesus worship

Post by rgprice »

Giuseppe wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2023 4:12 am The general tenor of this your post seems to point out that Paul was really the 'founder' of Christianity.

What do you think about the Pillars preceding Paul? Did they hallucinate already a Jesus?
I think they were working from allegorical readings of the scriptures according to the teachings of some mystery religion. No hallucinations necessary. I wouldn't even say that Paul was the founder of Christianity. I would say that the publication of the Pauline letter collection was the thing that launched Christianity. The mystery cult wasn't Christianity. Paul wasn't a Christian. The interpretation of Paul's writings and the stories that were developed from them are how Christianity developed, just as Karl Marx wasn't a Marxist. Rather, Marxism is the product of the interpretation of Marx's writings and the progression of new writings based on Marx's ideas. Marx didn't invent Marxism, later generations invented Marxism, just as Paul didn't invent Christianity, later generations working from his writings did.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Envisioning the beginnings of Jesus worship

Post by Giuseppe »

rgprice wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2023 4:29 am No hallucinations necessary.
what about the Paul's visit of the third heaven? Isn't it a real hallucination ?
rgprice
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Re: Envisioning the beginnings of Jesus worship

Post by rgprice »

Another only somewhat interesting thing has struck me.

Philemon:23 Epaphras, my fellow prisoner in Christ Jesus, sends greetings to you, 24 and so do Mark, Aristarchus, Demas, and Luke, my coworkers.

It seems to me that the Gospels of Mark and Luke (the original version of Luke, not canonical Luke) are the two most authentic of the Gospels and may actually have been written by the people they are attributed to. Except the Mark that wrote the Gospel of Mark wasn't an associate of Peter, he was an associate of Paul's.

Ironically, Mark and Luke were relegated to secondary status, while the Gospels of Matthew and John were given primacy do to the claim that they were written by eyewitnesses. But this is just one more example of how material that is believed to be later is actually the earliest and material that is presented at the earliest is actually the latest.

Mark and original Luke were the two earliest Gospels, written by actual associates of Paul's who actually had a real understanding of what the hell was going on. But their writings are allegories.

Matthew and John are later works written by outsiders who didn't have first hand knowledge of the original movement. John of course is a composite work with three or four layers to it.

But this situation should be no surprise. In studying ancient writings this is almost always the case. Its almost always the case that the most recent accounts are the authentic ones that are the most accurate while the older accounts are frauds/forgeries/fictions.

So the way I see teh timeline of the writings is something like this:

Pauline letters > Pauline letter collection > Acts of the Apostle (narrative about Paul's ministry) > Gospel of Mark > Gospel of (original) Luke > Marcion's Gospel > Marcion's edited collection > Gospel of John layer 1 > Gospel of Matthew > Gospel of canonical Luke and canonical Acts of the Apostles > Gospel of John orthodox revision.

Now, what I speculate is that John was actually an opponent of Paul's. I suspect that John is one of the false apostles. I don't think this John was the one mentioned by Paul in his letters, not the John of Peter, James and John, but a different John. We can see that both the letters of Paul and of John deal heavily with claims about false apostles and false teachings. The letters of John 2 & 3 are later forgeries it seems, but I think it possible that John 1 is an authentic letter by a real apostle named John, though it contains false claims.

As for the Revelation of John, though not actually by the same John as either of the others, I think this work is also anti-Pauline. It is addressed to a set of assemblies that were no doubt deeply rooted in Paul's ministry. It may never actually gone to them, its written as more of an open letter, but you can see that it essentially scolds these assemblies. The first assembly addressed is Ephesus, which seems to have been where Paul was headquartered.

To Ephesus John writes: "“I know your works, your toil and your endurance. I know that you cannot tolerate evildoers; you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not and have found them to be false."

I suspect that the claim of being an apostle but not is referring to Paul, as elsewhere in the letter the writer refers to the twelve apostles: "And the wall of the city has twelve foundations, and on them are the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb."

The New Jerusalem is founded upon the twelve real apostles according to this writer, not the later false apostle Paul.

So I think there was a real conflict going on between Pauline and anti-Pauline factions. The name of John was the banner of the anti-Pauline movement. Polycarp sought to unify the pro and anti Pauline factions against Marcion.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Envisioning the beginnings of Jesus worship

Post by Giuseppe »

I don't think this John was the one mentioned by Paul in his letters, not the John of Peter, James and John, but a different John.
It would be necessary more argument on this. If the two Johns are one and the same, then the evidence for hallucinatory origins of the sect would increase.
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Re: Envisioning the beginnings of Jesus worship

Post by lclapshaw »

When I created my BCE Paul I did so by taking the so called "authentic" letters literally and assuming a Jewish Paul predating the Gospel stories. This is false. My entire thesis was based on an erroneous point of view.

"Paul", whatever the actual source might have been, is clearly not Jewish. No matter what some redactor tried to do with the letters. "Paul" very clearly is, mostly, a literary construct of multiple authors that post date the Gospel stories and Acts. His sole purpose is to shore up the Gospel stories and Acts and create a linear progression of apostleship from Jerusalem to Rome.

The NT is fiction. When you realize that you will be able to move forward.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Envisioning the beginnings of Jesus worship

Post by Giuseppe »

lclapshaw wrote: Fri Sep 22, 2023 8:45 am "Paul" very clearly is, mostly, a literary construct of multiple authors that post date the Gospel stories and Acts.
What do you do about the Sound Silence by Paul about an earthly Jesus (hence including also the Gospel Jesus)?

That Sound Silence is what would prevent me from following Detering until to his logical conclusion. Someway, an anomaly has to be explained by both historicists and proponents of a post-gospel Paul.
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Re: Envisioning the beginnings of Jesus worship

Post by lclapshaw »

Giuseppe wrote: Fri Sep 22, 2023 9:00 am
lclapshaw wrote: Fri Sep 22, 2023 8:45 am "Paul" very clearly is, mostly, a literary construct of multiple authors that post date the Gospel stories and Acts.
What do you do about the Sound Silence by Paul about an earthly Jesus (hence including also the Gospel Jesus)?

That Sound Silence is what would prevent me from following Detering until to his logical conclusion. Someway, an anomaly has to be explained by both historicists and proponents of a post-gospel Paul.
My God! You're right! No mention of JtB either. Or Pilate, or Mary, or Joseph, or........

Just James and Cepheus/Pertos.
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: Envisioning the beginnings of Jesus worship

Post by Leucius Charinus »

lclapshaw wrote: Fri Sep 22, 2023 8:45 am When I created my BCE Paul I did so by taking the so called "authentic" letters literally and assuming a Jewish Paul predating the Gospel stories. This is false. My entire thesis was based on an erroneous point of view.

"Paul", whatever the actual source might have been, is clearly not Jewish. No matter what some redactor tried to do with the letters. "Paul" very clearly is, mostly, a literary construct of multiple authors that post date the Gospel stories and Acts. His sole purpose is to shore up the Gospel stories and Acts and create a linear progression of apostleship from Jerusalem to Rome.
I have in this and other threads done some analysis of rgprice's ideas. I must say that they are incredibly complex and posit an extremely complicated transmission and redaction history for the NT canonical texts. This is itself not unusual. The current crop of scholars reconstructing Marcion's gospel are in the same life-raft.

I believe they are missing the serious investigation and corresponding assessment of a vital possibility:
The NT is fiction. When you realize that you will be able to move forward.
If indeed the NT is an historical fiction we have no need for the complexities. Father Brodie posited a "literary school". Other scholars posit that the authors of the NT knew each other and were part of an elitist group. We do not need a community spread out over large expanses of time and space. We only need a small and elite "literary school".

The question which will lead us forward is, in my mind, where did the nomina sacra come from? The whole idea of "envisioning the beginnings of Jesus worship" lead us directly to the evidence that they started with these "runes" of IS XS. Aside from a very small number of exceptions we have seen that the actual physical evidence from antiquity up until Codex E in the 6th century had virtually no knowledge of "Jesus" or "Christ" except through these "sacred abbreviations".

Did the beginnings of Jesus worship actually start with the runes IS XS?
And if so, what does that suggest?
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