Slavonic Josephus: Master-copy of the Jesus Story?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Post Reply
User avatar
maryhelena
Posts: 3349
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:22 pm
Location: England

Slavonic Josephus: Master-copy of the Jesus Story?

Post by maryhelena »

A few years ago Joseph Hoffmann had a blog post entitled: "ARE THE SYNOPTIC GOSPELS COPY EXERCISES? JESUS AND ANACREON".

http://rjosephhoffmann.wordpress.com/20 ... -anacreon/

In that blog post Hoffmann raised the issue of a master-copy of the Jesus story.

There is no good reason why an anonymous copyist would have done what he did because he thought the copy he was working from was “authoritative”—and indeed it probably came to him without a titulus , that is to say, attribution. Similarly, as with the ancient tradition in letters, some copyists felt moved to add detail, story, to alter, to correct—things that biblical scholars have known to be true about the gospels for a long time–indeed have developed critical methods to cope with them–but have linked to a different set of motivations based not on what we know to be true of classical letters but what we think to be true of a sui generis form of sacred literature..

I find it more probable that we possess four of the exercises, and that these exercises have to be submitted to an analysis based not on “redaction” and tendency—fidelity to or departure from a long-gone plumb-line–as much as on the more or less purely artistic intention of the writer in terms of the story he is telling.

For all we know one such copyist may have been named Mark and another Luke. But if that is so, it is only accidentally so and they were men of no significant personal distinction. They were men who took it upon themselves to imitate, “restore” or amend the lost (or nearly lost) prototype, the master-copy of the Jesus story.

Is the wonder-doer story, and birth narrative, that are now in Slavonic Josephus that master-copy?

Thomas Brodie has suggested three models for literary investigation; quotation, allusion and transformation. If these methods are applied to the Slavonic Josephus material, it becomes apparent that this material is earlier than the material that is now in the NT gospels. This thread will seek to demonstrate the connection between the gospel story and the material in Slavonic Josephus.

The variations between these three models (quotation, allusion, and transformation)
are like the variations, when moving house, between ( l ) keeping
the old name plate or name; (2) keeping some key furnishings and some
photos of the old house; and (3) taking the old house itself, and using its
materials as one component, major or minor, to help build the new, even if
the stones in the old sandstone walls are reduced to gravel for the driveway
so that, at first sight at least, they are unrecognizable.

The issue is pivotal. Many biblical researchers tend to reject literary
dependence if the dependence is not easily recognizable, if the hearers would
not detect it. However, what counts for the investigator is not easy recognition,
but whether, with due inquiry and patient work in the laboratory of
literary comparison, in other words, in meticulous application of appropriate
criteria, the hidden connection can be established. And the hidden connections
are vast -far, far greater in number and volume than connections that
are easily recognizable. Recognizable connections are like the few fish that
occasionally break above the surface of the ocean. The overwhelming majority
of the fish are out of sight, in the depths. The time has come for biblical
research to move out into the deep.

The concept of transformation is not alien to the New Testament. It occurs at
a key point in Mark's Gospel, at the literary centre, in the account of the
Transfiguration, where it says that Jesus meta-morphothe, literally 'was
transformed ' (Mk 9.2; cf. Mt. 1 7.2).

What is important is that within the ancient world the general concept
of transformation was familiar, so it is relatively easy to understand why
processes of transformation were so acceptable within literary composition.
Instances occur across virtually the entire range of ancient literature, nonbiblical
and biblical, Old Testament and New, and the evidence of processes
of transformation is increasing rapidly.

So, to summarize. Three of the main methods of using existing texts are:
quotation, allusion and transformation. Among these three, biblical research
has gone far in articulating one and two - quotation, and (narrative) allusion.
The third method, insofar as it involves major transformation, is still largely
unexplored.

One of the features of recent biblical studies is that several researchers,
including those concentrating on the presence of allusion/echo, have begun
to spell out the criteria for claiming that one document depends on another.
In my own case it took me several years to go from strong suspicion and
scattered evidence to being able to lay out the evidence in a reasonably
orderly way.

Thomas Brodie: Beyond the Quest for the Historical Jesus. Pages 130-133

Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W.B. Yeats
User avatar
maryhelena
Posts: 3349
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:22 pm
Location: England

Re: Slavonic Josephus: Master-copy of the Jesus Story?

Post by maryhelena »

Reposting this chart from the thread on the TF.

Slavonic Josephus Gospel of Luke: Emmaus Narrative Antiquities: TF
1. At that time also a man came forward,—if even it is fitting to call him a man [simply]. 2. His nature as well as his form were a man's; but his showing forth was more than [that] of a man. 3. His works, that is to say, were godly, and he wrought wonder-deeds amazing and full of power. 4. Therefore it is not possible for me to call him a man [simply]. 5. But again, looking at the existence he shared with all, I would also not call him an angel. They replied, "The things about Jesus of Nazareth, who was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people, About this time there lived Jesus a wise-man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly.
6. And all that he wrought through some kind of invisible power, he wrought by word and command.

   7. Some said of him, that our first Lawgiver has risen from the dead and shows forth many cures and arts. 8. But others supposed [less definitely] that he is sent by God.
9. Now he opposed himself in much to the Law and did not observe the Sabbath according to ancestral custom. 10. Yet, on the other hand, he did nothing reprehensible nor any crime; but by word solely he effected everything.

   11. And many from the folk followed him and received his teachings. 12. And many souls became wavering, supposing that thereby the Jewish tribes would set themselves free from the Roman hands.
He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks.
13. Now it was his custom often to stop on the Mount of Olives facing the city. 14. And there also he avouched his cures p. 107 to the people. 15. And there gathered themselves to him of servants (Knechten) a hundred and fifty, but of the folk a multitude.

   16. But when they saw his power, that he accomplished everything that he would by word, they urged him that he should enter the city and cut down the Roman soldiers and Pilate and rule over us. 17. But that one scorned it.
But we had hoped that he was the one to redeem Israel.
18. And thereafter, when knowledge of it came to the Jewish leaders, they gathered together with the High-priest and spake: We are powerless and weak to withstand the Romans. 19. But as withal the bow is bent, we will go and tell Pilate what we have heard, and we will be without distress, lest if he hear it from others, we be robbed of our substance and ourselves be put to the sword and our children ruined." 20. And they went and told it to Pilate.
21. And he sent and had many of the people cut down. 22. And he had that wonder-doer brought up. And when he had instituted a trial concerning him, he perceived that he is a doer of good, but not an evildoer, nor a revolutionary, nor one who aimed at power, and set him free. 23. He had, you should know, healed his dying wife.
24. And he went to his accustomed place and wrought his accustomed works. 25. And as again more folk gathered themselves together round him, then did he win glory through his works more than all.
26. The teachers of the Law were [therefore] envenomed with envy and gave thirty talents to Pilate, in order that he should put him to death. 27. And he, after he had taken [the money], gave them consent that they should themselves carry out their purpose.

   28. And they took him and crucified him according to the ancestral law.
and how our chief priests and leaders handed him over to be condemned to death and crucified him. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease.
1. Again Claudius sent his authorities to those states—Cuspius Fadus and Tiberius Alexander, both of whom kept the  people in peace, not allowing them to depart in anything from the pure laws.

   2. But if anyone diverged from the word of the Law, plaint was brought before the teachers of the Law. 3. Often they expelled him and sent him to the Emperor's presence.

   4. And at the time of these two many had been discovered as servants of the previously described wonder-doer; and as they spake to the people about their teacher,—that he is living, although he is dead, and that he will free you from your servitude,—many from the folk gave ear to the above-named and took upon themselves their precept.http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/gno/gjb/gjb-3.htm
Yes, and besides all this, it is now the third day since these things took place. 22 Moreover, some women of our group astounded us. They were at the tomb early this morning, 23 and when they did not find his body there, they came back and told us that they had indeed seen a vision of angels who said that he was alive.

Then he said to them, "Oh, how foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have declared! 26 Was it not necessary that the Messiah should suffer these things and then enter into his glory?" 27 Then beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them the things about himself in all the scriptures.

"Thus it is written, that the Messiah is to suffer and to rise from the dead on the third day,
He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.


He was the Christ.

Last edited by maryhelena on Thu Nov 27, 2014 1:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W.B. Yeats
User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 9514
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: Slavonic Josephus: Master-copy of the Jesus Story?

Post by MrMacSon »

The bottom left box commentary ^ is similar to the early-2nd-century Suetonius reference to Claudius's 46 AD/CE activity -
  • Iudaeos impulsore Chresto assidue tumultuantis Roma expulit
Translated -
  • 1. "He expelled from Rome the Jews constantly making disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus", or
    2. "Since the Jews constantly make disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome", or
    3. "From Rome he (Claudius) expelled the perpetually tumultuating Jews prompted by Chrestus."[18]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suetonius ... _reference
D.M. Murdock/Acharya S states -
we are not certain at all that this purported "reference" in Suetonius has anything to do with Christ and Christians.

Scientific studies of Suetonius's extant works demonstrate that "Chresto" is the most common epithet in the manuscript tradition. As we will discover, Chresto or its Greek original, Chrestos, was commonly found in pre-Christian antiquity, and its presence in Suetonius most likely had nothing to do with any historical founder of Christianity called "Jesus the Christ." Rather, this commonly held title was one of the earliest applied to what is clearly a fictional composite of characters, real and mythical, styled "Jesus the Good."

In addition, the event in which Claudius expelled Jews from Rome is recorded elsewhere in other histories - without the "impulsore Chresto" claim - and seems to date to around 49, 52 or 53 AD/CE, an incident that apparently was unrelated to a historical Jesus of Nazareth and cannot serve as evidence for his historicity.

http://www.truthbeknown.com/suetoniuschresto.html
ficino
Posts: 745
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:15 pm

Re: Slavonic Josephus: Master-copy of the Jesus Story?

Post by ficino »

I said my horses were tuckered out. Well, their driver (prasini semper!) has enough strength left to gasp out a couple of questions:

are you factoring in ALL the "additions" in Slavonic Josephus? For example, the story that an inscription about Jesus was carved above a gate in the Temple? If you're not considering all the additions, what is your criterion of discrimination?

did you go through my objections to Nodet? Others more expert than I can have raised such. E.g. Nodet does not do justice to Photius.

Can you be very explicit in setting out the methodology by which you arrive at this apparent conclusion? Sc. "If these methods are applied to the Slavonic Josephus material, it becomes apparent that this material is earlier than the material that is now in the NT gospels."

Catch you back at the barn,

cheers, F
User avatar
DCHindley
Posts: 3612
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:53 am
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: Slavonic Josephus: Master-copy of the Jesus Story?

Post by DCHindley »

mh,

You keep referring to Leeming & Leeming's Josephus’ Jewish War & Its Slavonic Version (2003), but doesn't this work discount the idea that the additions in the Slavonic War are traceable to Josephus, but rather represent the musings of the East Slavonic translator?

Unfortunately, I misplaced my photocopy of the relevant passage.

DCH
Stephan Huller
Posts: 3009
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:59 pm

Re: Slavonic Josephus: Master-copy of the Jesus Story?

Post by Stephan Huller »

its available in large part in Google books and yes they say this kind of theory is untenable. the text was altered by a Russian
User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 9514
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: Slavonic Josephus: Master-copy of the Jesus Story?

Post by MrMacSon »

Stephan Huller wrote: ... the text was altered ...
Even so, the similarities between aspects of 'Slavonic Josphus'A and Suetonius's Claudius 15B is interesting:

Did the writer of Slavonic Josephus use Suetonius?
A
1. Again Claudius sent his authorities to those states - Cuspius Fadus and Tiberius Alexander, both of whom kept the people in peace, not allowing them to depart in anything from the pure laws.

2. But if anyone diverged from the word of the Law, plaint was brought before the teachers of the Law.

3. Often they expelled him/[them] and sent him/[them] to the Emperor's presence.

4. And, at the time of these two, many had been discovered as servants of the previously described wonder-doer; and as they spake to the people about their teacher, - that he is living, although he is dead, and that he will free you from your servitude, - many from the folk gave ear to the above-named and took upon themselves their precept.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/gno/gjb/gjb-3.htm
B
  • Iudaeos impulsore Chresto assidue tumultuantis Roma expulit
Translated -
  • 1. "He expelled from Rome the Jews constantly making disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus", or
    2. "Since the Jews constantly make disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome", or
    3. "From Rome he (Claudius) expelled the perpetually tumultuating Jews prompted by Chrestus."[18]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suetonius ... _reference
User avatar
maryhelena
Posts: 3349
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:22 pm
Location: England

Re: Slavonic Josephus: Master-copy of the Jesus Story?

Post by maryhelena »

DCHindley wrote:mh,

You keep referring to Leeming & Leeming's Josephus’ Jewish War & Its Slavonic Version (2003), but doesn't this work discount the idea that the additions in the Slavonic War are traceable to Josephus, but rather represent the musings of the East Slavonic translator?

Unfortunately, I misplaced my photocopy of the relevant passage.

DCH
A very quick look at the book, page xiii.

Mescerskij’s critical edition received a couple of unexceptional reviews in foreign journals but a lively polemic in the review of the Russian medieval scholar N. K. Gudzij, who criticised his hypothesis that all the
'Additions' in the Old Russian translation are to be attributed to the initiative of the Old Russian translator. Gudzij expressed his support for the view of Berendts and Istrin that the source of the Old Russian translation was a now non-extant Greek text that ante-dated the surviving Greek tradition and, in all probability, had included the “Additions” found in the Old Russian text. In my opinion, however. Gudzij's criticism was not based on thorough textological analysis.



Mescerskij's essay was published in 1958 - long before the translations of the DSS were published. A Catholic scholar (yes, really...) has recently taken up the issue of the Slavonic Josephus:

Etienne Nodet: The Historical Jesus: Necessity and Limits of an Inquiry (Jewish & Christian Texts in Contexts and Related Studies)

This presentation on the Slavonic version, which has become more accessible thanks to the recent appearance of a new English translation, is intended to show its importance for a renewed understanding of certain aspects of the New Testament.

<snip>

However, Eisler’s work - which has an undeniable excess - was overall badly received, but for two distinct reasons: by Catholics, because it put in a bad light the exactness of the Gospels when Catholics were scarcely out of the Modernist crisis; by Protestants, because the Slavonic supplements, by the very fact that they spoke even in a veiled way of Jesus, were necessarily Christian interpolations. These latter, of whom Hansack is the heir, received the greatest support in an article by E. Bickermann, as always brilliant and well documented, but starting off from the same presupposition. Then, outside of questions on Slavonic philology and some jolts due to the Qumran discoveries, the matter was considered settled.

But that is not certain!


Etienne Nodet is Professor of Ancient Jewish Literature at the Ecole Biblique et Archeologique in Jerusalem.

https://www.academia.edu/6883079/The_Sl ... f_Josephus

In this pdf are examples of Nodet using the DSS in connection with the Slavonic Josephus material.

Keep in mind that it is only the historical Jesus assumption, as drawn from an interpretation of the NT gospels, that prevents the material in the Slavonic Josephus from been given credibility. Once this assumption is set aside - the material in the Slavonic Josephus can regain it's place as a very early account of a developing Jesus story.
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W.B. Yeats
ficino
Posts: 745
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:15 pm

Re: Slavonic Josephus: Master-copy of the Jesus Story?

Post by ficino »

maryhelena wrote: A Catholic scholar (yes, really...) has recently taken up the issue of the Slavonic Josephus:

Etienne Nodet: The Historical Jesus: Necessity and Limits of an Inquiry (Jewish & Christian Texts in Contexts and Related Studies)

This presentation on the Slavonic version, which has become more accessible thanks to the recent appearance of a new English translation, is intended to show its importance for a renewed understanding of certain aspects of the New Testament.

<snip>

However, Eisler’s work - which has an undeniable excess - was overall badly received, but for two distinct reasons: by Catholics, because it put in a bad light the exactness of the Gospels when Catholics were scarcely out of the Modernist crisis; by Protestants, because the Slavonic supplements, by the very fact that they spoke even in a veiled way of Jesus, were necessarily Christian interpolations. These latter, of whom Hansack is the heir, received the greatest support in an article by E. Bickermann, as always brilliant and well documented, but starting off from the same presupposition. Then, outside of questions on Slavonic philology and some jolts due to the Qumran discoveries, the matter was considered settled.

But that is not certain!


Etienne Nodet is Professor of Ancient Jewish Literature at the Ecole Biblique et Archeologique in Jerusalem.

https://www.academia.edu/6883079/The_Sl ... f_Josephus

In this pdf are examples of Nodet using the DSS in connection with the Slavonic Josephus material.

Keep in mind that it is only the historical Jesus assumption, as drawn from an interpretation of the NT gospels, that prevents the material in the Slavonic Josephus from been given credibility. Once this assumption is set aside - the material in the Slavonic Josephus can regain it's place as a very early account of a developing Jesus story.
mh, what you say in your last paragraph above is not so. I set forth various reasons why I do not find Nodet's arguments convincing:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=984&p=21359&hilit=nodet#p21272
User avatar
maryhelena
Posts: 3349
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:22 pm
Location: England

Re: Slavonic Josephus: Master-copy of the Jesus Story?

Post by maryhelena »

ficino wrote:I said my horses were tuckered out. Well, their driver (prasini semper!) has enough strength left to gasp out a couple of questions:

are you factoring in ALL the "additions" in Slavonic Josephus? For example, the story that an inscription about Jesus was carved above a gate in the Temple? If you're not considering all the additions, what is your criterion of discrimination?
Yep, all material relevant to the wonder-doer story as it relates to the gospel story.

did you go through my objections to Nodet? Others more expert than I can have raised such. E.g. Nodet does not do justice to Photius.
Yes, I read that post and made the following comment.
For my part I'm not so interested in Nodet's specific use of Slavonic Josephus - it's the fact that he used it at all that interested me. :)

A scholar prepared to 'have a go' at Slavonic Josephus is to be commended.....The more publicizing of the Slavonic Josephus material can only be a good thing for NT research.
Can you be very explicit in setting out the methodology by which you arrive at this apparent conclusion? Sc. "If these methods are applied to the Slavonic Josephus material, it becomes apparent that this material is earlier than the material that is now in the NT gospels."
Contrasting, comparing the material in Slavonic Josephus with the gospel Jesus story with the intention of demonstrating a developing Jesus story. No linguistics just storyline compared to storyline.

Catch you back at the barn,

cheers, F
I'm at the racecourse - just placed a safe bet..... ;)
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W.B. Yeats
Post Reply