Slavonic Josephus: Master-copy of the Jesus Story?

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Stephan Huller
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Re: Slavonic Josephus: Master-copy of the Jesus Story?

Post by Stephan Huller »

Yep, just like Stephan Huller and his all roads lead to Marcion...talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
But there is a notable difference Mary Helena. Almost any credible book on the development of Christianity references Marcion. The boldness of your statement that 'Jesus was a composite figure' - explicitly assuming that this is a settled question - is beyond ludicrous. There are so many parts to this claim - the most obvious assumption being that Jesus was a mythical figure and not exactly what appears on the written page (i.e. a historical man who was also the Son of God and Christ). I might not subscribe to some or all of the accepted notions of who Jesus was but the only thing that I assume that is settled is the value of Marcion to the question of the development of Christianity.

In your case you've got to stop acting as if you've established any sort of 'beachhead' in the debate by citing Broadie or Slavonic Josephus. These are all arguments or ideas. They are not 'settled facts.' It is unlikely that in your lifetime you will ever get beyond presenting your ideas as 'arguments.' I may think that your ideas are nonsense but they are still 'ideas.' On some level I have to respect them as such. Any idea is capable of being true on some level. But please stop pretending that 'the world' as such accepts the idea that 'Jesus was a composite figure.' It's annoying.
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cienfuegos
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Re: Slavonic Josephus: Master-copy of the Jesus Story?

Post by cienfuegos »

What I would like to see here is what about each of these sections could not have been written by later medieval Russian with gMark and presumably some form of the TF in front of him. This is the table that maryhelena posted before (I think she made it(?)). I have altered it to create space for our arguments. Please add to it this (Maybe using color to designate your contribution). You have to find the column indicated by the td and /td in brackets. Type between those. I would like to see what others think of this. I will add my own in.
maryhelena wrote:Reposting this chart from the thread on the TF.

Slavonic Josephus Evidence: Josephus Evidence: Not Josephus
1. At that time also a man came forward,—if even it is fitting to call him a man [simply]. 2. His nature as well as his form were a man's; but his showing forth was more than [that] of a man. 3. His works, that is to say, were godly, and he wrought wonder-deeds amazing and full of power. 4. Therefore it is not possible for me to call him a man [simply]. 5. But again, looking at the existence he shared with all, I would also not call him an angel. Arguments and evidence here Arguments and evidence here.
6. And all that he wrought through some kind of invisible power, he wrought by word and command.

   7. Some said of him, that our first Lawgiver has risen from the dead and shows forth many cures and arts. 8. But others supposed [less definitely] that he is sent by God.
9. Now he opposed himself in much to the Law and did not observe the Sabbath according to ancestral custom. 10. Yet, on the other hand, he did nothing reprehensible nor any crime; but by word solely he effected everything.

   11. And many from the folk followed him and received his teachings. 12. And many souls became wavering, supposing that thereby the Jewish tribes would set themselves free from the Roman hands.
13. Now it was his custom often to stop on the Mount of Olives facing the city. 14. And there also he avouched his cures p. 107 to the people. 15. And there gathered themselves to him of servants (Knechten) a hundred and fifty, but of the folk a multitude.

   16. But when they saw his power, that he accomplished everything that he would by word, they urged him that he should enter the city and cut down the Roman soldiers and Pilate and rule over us. 17. But that one scorned it.
18. And thereafter, when knowledge of it came to the Jewish leaders, they gathered together with the High-priest and spake: We are powerless and weak to withstand the Romans. 19. But as withal the bow is bent, we will go and tell Pilate what we have heard, and we will be without distress, lest if he hear it from others, we be robbed of our substance and ourselves be put to the sword and our children ruined." 20. And they went and told it to Pilate.
21. And he sent and had many of the people cut down. 22. And he had that wonder-doer brought up. And when he had instituted a trial concerning him, he perceived that he is a doer of good, but not an evildoer, nor a revolutionary, nor one who aimed at power, and set him free. 23. He had, you should know, healed his dying wife.
24. And he went to his accustomed place and wrought his accustomed works. 25. And as again more folk gathered themselves together round him, then did he win glory through his works more than all.
26. The teachers of the Law were [therefore] envenomed with envy and gave thirty talents to Pilate, in order that he should put him to death. 27. And he, after he had taken [the money], gave them consent that they should themselves carry out their purpose.

   28. And they took him and crucified him according to the ancestral law.
1. Again Claudius sent his authorities to those states—Cuspius Fadus and Tiberius Alexander, both of whom kept the  people in peace, not allowing them to depart in anything from the pure laws.

   2. But if anyone diverged from the word of the Law, plaint was brought before the teachers of the Law. 3. Often they expelled him and sent him to the Emperor's presence.

   4. And at the time of these two many had been discovered as servants of the previously described wonder-doer; and as they spake to the people about their teacher,—that he is living, although he is dead, and that he will free you from your servitude,—many from the folk gave ear to the above-named and took upon themselves their precept.http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/gno/gjb/gjb-3.htm

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maryhelena
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Re: Slavonic Josephus: Master-copy of the Jesus Story?

Post by maryhelena »

maryhelena wrote:
cienfuegos wrote:
Contrasting, comparing the material in Slavonic Josephus with the gospel Jesus story with the intention of demonstrating a developing Jesus story. No linguistics just storyline compared to storyline.
maryhelena,

This isn't a methodology. How do you guard against your predetermined outcome? I say "predetermined" because I see no hints in what you say that you have carefully and objectively considered the alternative hypothesis and compared your favored hypothesis to that.

The 'alternative hypothesis'? My 'favored hypothesis"? The gospel figure of Jesus is a composite figure. - i.e. not a historical figure. I have no intention, whatsoever, of considering the alternative. I made my decision over 30 years ago and since then have not come across any logical reason to consider the alternative. Why should I waste my time with an assumption I discarded so long ago? I'm interested in moving forward not backwards....
Ok, there you go. This is not scientific thinking. It is dogmatism.
Dogmatism to make a decision? What persuades one person will not necessary persuade another...One does not achieve much by sitting on the fence.
If we apply the very same methodology "comparing the matherial"..."with the intention of demonstrating a developing Jesus story..." to Jewish Wars 6.5.3, I think we could build an ironclad case for Jesus ben Ananus being the inspiration of Mark's passion story and, I would add, even used by later authors to fill in further details of the Passion.
Really? OK. Be my guest and produce the goods.....talk is easy...
I don't really have to, it's been done already, admirably well:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=853

And how far has Carrier got with this? The fundamental gospel story is about a crucified Jesus figure - and Jesus ben Ananus?? The gospel Jesus story developed from a Josephan story about Jesus ben Ananus?. A Josephan figure for which there is no historical evidence. Try selling that one to NT scholars...

In your description of Brodie's 3 models, it seems to me that you are confusing what he is saying. The 3 models are categories of how ancient writers used ancient texts to develop their works. The one that relates here is "transformative." We could argue that there is a transformative relationship between the Gospels and Slavonic Josephus, but how do you determine direction of dependence? My feeling is that direction of dependence runs: Gospels ---> Slavonic Josephus. The author of SJ had several sources available to him to elaborate on the original TF. What is your methodology for determining an SJ--->Gospels? or SJ ---> TF?
I beg to differ. Transformation runs from the material that is now in the Slavonic Josephus. To imagine that anyone could write such material with any NT gospel in front of them is simply ludicrous.
I want to know your methodology for determining the direction of dependence. Why is it ludicrous? What have you established for the sitz im leben of the author of SJ? Many scholars have studied this and concluded that it can't have been written by Josephus, so how is it ludicrous to imagine that someone could have written it with the NT gospel in front of them? It must not be ludicrous. I could be wrong. What specific evidence or background information are you basing your assessment that it is ludicrous "to imagine that anyone could write such material with any NT gospel in front of them..."
Well, I would suggest you are wrong. Try it out - put the NT gospels in front of you and and imagine you are that writer of the Slavonic material. What can you possibly accomplish by discarding the NT material? Why would you want to disregard gMatthew and gLuke and put a birth narrative in the early years of Herod I?
maryhelena wrote: Indeed, re Brodie. Notice, however, this point:

So, to summarize. Three of the main methods of using existing texts are:
quotation, allusion and transformation. Among these three, biblical research
has gone far in articulating one and two - quotation, and (narrative) allusion.
The third method, insofar as it involves major transformation, is still largely
unexplored.

If ancient writers used "quotation, allusion and transformation" in creating their texts - then, today, when we want to understand their texts - we need to be aware of these three methods in our reading of their texts. It works both ways - author and reader - not simply something an author would do.
We need to be aware, of course, but it isn't the same process. One refers to a process of creation of literary artifacts, the case of modern researchers refers to examination of those artifacts.
Sure - one is a creative endeavour and the other is an interpretative endeavour. Both, however, require awareness of the make-up of the material.
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maryhelena
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Re: Slavonic Josephus: Master-copy of the Jesus Story?

Post by maryhelena »

Stephan Huller wrote:
Yep, just like Stephan Huller and his all roads lead to Marcion...talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
But there is a notable difference Mary Helena. Almost any credible book on the development of Christianity references Marcion. The boldness of your statement that 'Jesus was a composite figure' - explicitly assuming that this is a settled question - is beyond ludicrous. There are so many parts to this claim - the most obvious assumption being that Jesus was a mythical figure and not exactly what appears on the written page (i.e. a historical man who was also the Son of God and Christ). I might not subscribe to some or all of the accepted notions of who Jesus was but the only thing that I assume that is settled is the value of Marcion to the question of the development of Christianity.

In your case you've got to stop acting as if you've established any sort of 'beachhead' in the debate by citing Broadie or Slavonic Josephus. These are all arguments or ideas. They are not 'settled facts.' It is unlikely that in your lifetime you will ever get beyond presenting your ideas as 'arguments.' I may think that your ideas are nonsense but they are still 'ideas.' On some level I have to respect them as such. Any idea is capable of being true on some level. But please stop pretending that 'the world' as such accepts the idea that 'Jesus was a composite figure.' It's annoying.
Stephan Huller - don't try telling me what to do - From a man who has published a ludicrous book this really is preposterous.... :popcorn:
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cienfuegos
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Re: Slavonic Josephus: Master-copy of the Jesus Story?

Post by cienfuegos »


Slavonic Josephus Evidence: Josephus Evidence: Not Josephus
1. At that time also a man came forward,—if even it is fitting to call him a man [simply]. 2. His nature as well as his form were a man's; but his showing forth was more than [that] of a man. 3. His works, that is to say, were godly, and he wrought wonder-deeds amazing and full of power.[/color] 4. Therefore it is not possible for me to call him a man [simply]. 5. But again, looking at the existence he shared with all, I would also not call him an angel. Nothing here says it is josephus. It all sounds very much like a Christian interpolation. I don't think there is anything here Josephus would write. To say that this Jesus was "godly" is beyond the pale, I think, for one example.
6. And all that he wrought through some kind of invisible power, he wrought by word and command.

   7. Some said of him, that our first Lawgiver has risen from the dead and shows forth many cures and arts. 8. But others supposed [less definitely] that he is sent by God.
"others supposed" could be an expression of doubt, unlikely from Christian, but this author isn't saying those others were correct. Some kind of invisible power?
9. Now he opposed himself in much to the Law and did not observe the Sabbath according to ancestral custom. 10. Yet, on the other hand, he did nothing reprehensible nor any crime; but by word solely he effected everything.

   11. And many from the folk followed him and received his teachings. 12. And many souls became wavering, supposing that thereby the Jewish tribes would set themselves free from the Roman hands.
Sounds distincly Christian, as opposed to Jewish. Isn't this exactly Christian practice and how Christians distinguish themselves from Jews?
13. Now it was his custom often to stop on the Mount of Olives facing the city. 14. And there also he avouched his cures p. 107 to the people. 15. And there gathered themselves to him of servants (Knechten) a hundred and fifty, but of the folk a multitude.

   16. But when they saw his power, that he accomplished everything that he would by word, they urged him that he should enter the city and cut down the Roman soldiers and Pilate and rule over us. 17. But that one scorned it.
This indeed does not sound like a Christian interpolator, in particular 16b and 17.It also doesn't sound Josephan. Up to 16b and 17, nothing suggests it is not a Christian.
18. And thereafter, when knowledge of it came to the Jewish leaders, they gathered together with the High-priest and spake: We are powerless and weak to withstand the Romans. 19. But as withal the bow is bent, we will go and tell Pilate what we have heard, and we will be without distress, lest if he hear it from others, we be robbed of our substance and ourselves be put to the sword and our children ruined." 20. And they went and told it to Pilate. Nothing here that could not be Christian. Gospel fill, it seems.
21. And he sent and had many of the people cut down. 22. And he had that wonder-doer brought up. And when he had instituted a trial concerning him, he perceived that he is a doer of good, but not an evildoer, nor a revolutionary, nor one who aimed at power, and set him free. 23. He had, you should know, healed his dying wife. no evidence of Josephan authorship,but it could be author used other stories (the Egyptian, for example) as filler. Conflation of gospels and Christian legend.
24. And he went to his accustomed place and wrought his accustomed works. 25. And as again more folk gathered themselves together round him, then did he win glory through his works more than all. no evidence for a Josephan origin. Not very Josephan
26. The teachers of the Law were [therefore] envenomed with envy and gave thirty talents to Pilate, in order that he should put him to death. 27. And he, after he had taken [the money], gave them consent that they should themselves carry out their purpose.

   28. And they took him and crucified him according to the ancestral law.
departs from Gospel story, has Jews kill Jesus On the other hand, other Christian writings did have Jesus killed by Jews.
1. Again Claudius sent his authorities to those states—Cuspius Fadus and Tiberius Alexander, both of whom kept the  people in peace, not allowing them to depart in anything from the pure laws.

   2. But if anyone diverged from the word of the Law, plaint was brought before the teachers of the Law. 3. Often they expelled him and sent him to the Emperor's presence.

   4. And at the time of these two many had been discovered as servants of the previously described wonder-doer; and as they spake to the people about their teacher,—that he is living, although he is dead, and that he will free you from your servitude,—many from the folk gave ear to the above-named and took upon themselves their precept.
Not very christian ("he is living although he is dead" this is the best evidence here. it doesn't really say Josephus to me, it does seem odd for a Christian

[/quote]

We have a mixed bag here, it seems to me. There isn't anything that seems to be authored by Josephus, but I can see where some of it seems odd from a Christian. More on this:
But when they saw his power, that he accomplished everything that he would by word, they urged him that he should enter the city and cut down the Roman soldiers and Pilate and rule over us. 17. But that one scorned it.
This actually seems more reflective of other martyrs referred to by Josephus. In particular:
...about this time, someone came out of Egypt to Jerusalem, claiming to be a prophet. He advised the crowd to go along with him to the Mount of Olives, as it was called, which lay over against the city, and at the distance of a kilometer. He added that he would show them from hence how the walls of Jerusalem would fall down at his command, and he promised them that he would procure them an entrance into the city through those collapsed walls.
Flavius Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 20.169-170
Mount Olives_outside the walls_power by word, this sounds like the interpolator used bits of Josephus to build new bits of Josephus.
ficino
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Re: Slavonic Josephus: Master-copy of the Jesus Story?

Post by ficino »

Great platform for further reflection, cienfuegos!

I can't analyze languages I don't know. Mescerskij brought Josippon into the picture. It is a medieval Hebrew reworking of Josephus [or maybe not; cf.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josippon ]. In chapter 7 of his intro., M. was led by analyzing Josippon to deny the existence of an original Aramaic version, despite what Josephus wrote in BG 1.3. His analysis of Syriac and Old Russian terms led him to think that the original BJ was in Greek. Then in chapter 8, M. goes into an analysis of the Russian vs. the Greek and concludes that some Greek words weren't translated. He thinks (thought in 1958) that the Greek ms. used to translate SlaJos differed in certain respects from the mass of our extant Greek mss. He didn't think the "additions" went back to Josephus, though.

Having recommended the book to me, of course, maryhelena, I know you're familiar with M's position. I can't go further right now. Josippon is a complicator.

Steven Bowman, in his 2006 review of Leeming and Leeming in Speculum (pp. 556-7) says that Pseudo-Hegesippus, a Jewish convert to Christianity, produced a "theologically based history" on the fall of Jerusalem in the fourth or fifth century. It was subsequently attributed to Josephus, as was 4 Maccabees. Bowman says that Ps.-Heg was in turn "apparently the major source" for the account of the fall of Jerus. in the 10th century Hebrew Josippon, which in turn "had considerable influence" on both the Slavonic Jos. Jewish War and the Slavonic Josippon that appeared at the end of the 11th century. Bowman agrees with the conclusion that SlaJos is based on some Greek ms., not on an Aramaic version of the War. [He doesn't go into the source of the "additions."] Bowman opines that SlaJos and Josippon "should be treated in tandem" given their relationship in time and content.
Bowman approves of Mescerskij's conclusion that in SlaJos we have an independent text, not a "slavish" translation of a Byzantine model, as Solomon Zeitlin thought. Bowman commends the critical text of the Hebrew Josippon produced by David Flusser. Flusser found numerous interpolations in it. Bowman sums up: "Both the Slavonic Jewish War and the Hebrew Yosippon then are independent creations of versatile lay authors who were masters of their respective cultures and literary languages with a highly developed sense of originality and imagination. Surely these conclusions by the two critical editors of the manuscripts of these controversial texts add a significant contribution to our understanding of the development of literature in the tenth and eleventh centuries among Jews and Christians on the periphery of Byzantium." He adds that Mescerskij would have profited from Flusser's better text of Josippon.

I'm not a specialist in any of this stuff, save that I read Greek and Latin and have read a good deal of Josephus and have poked around in the secondary literature on him and on the different ancient translations of his work. From what I can see, Bowman does a good job of putting SlaJos in a context. If the scholars on whom he relies were right, it does look as though in SlaJos we have a fascinating case of story development - but that it gives us a window into a process of development taking place in early medieval Russia, not in 1st century Palestine.
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Re: Slavonic Josephus: Master-copy of the Jesus Story?

Post by maryhelena »

cienfuegos wrote:What I would like to see here is what about each of these sections could not have been written by later medieval Russian with gMark and presumably some form of the TF in front of him. This is the table that maryhelena posted before (I think she made it(?)). I have altered it to create space for our arguments. Please add to it this (Maybe using color to designate your contribution). You have to find the column indicated by the td and /td in brackets. Type between those. I would like to see what others think of this. I will add my own in.
Well, at least its nice to see that you are using the TF in connection with the wonder-doer story in Slavonic Josephus..... :)

Anyone can use the basic wise-man crucified under Pilate of the TF and create a back-story. That's no big deal. The issue here is the NT gospel story and whether one can, with those gospels in front of one, write the Slavonic Josephus wonder-doer story and be taken seriously.
Try it out - put the NT gospels in front of you and and imagine you are that writer of the Slavonic material. What can you possibly accomplish by discarding the NT material? Why would you want to disregard gMatthew and gLuke and put a birth narrative in the early years of Herod I?
Why write a story that has no name for the wonder-doer. No name for any followers/disciples. No mention of the betrayal of Judas. No resurrection on the third day. No mention of the baptism by John the Baptist. No raising of the dead Lazarus. No walking on water. Why write a story so devoid of all the colour of the gospel story and produce a no-name brand? It boggles the mind to think that a Christian would write such a story....
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ficino
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Re: Slavonic Josephus: Master-copy of the Jesus Story?

Post by ficino »

maryhelena wrote:
Why write a story that has no name for the wonder-doer. No name for any followers/disciples. No mention of the betrayal of Judas. No resurrection on the third day. No mention of the baptism by John the Baptist. No raising of the dead Lazarus. No walking on water. Why write a story so devoid of all the colour of the gospel story and produce a no-name brand? It boggles the mind to think that a Christian would write such a story....
Just a thought: it might be a worthwhile avenue of investigation to look into the cultural exchanges between Jews and Christians in the Khazar kingdom, the only Jewish state in the middle ages, and its Byzantine and Russian neighbors. The person or persons who penned the "additions" in SlaJos - whether they invented them or found them in earlier texts - may not have had the agenda that we today imagine a Christian would have. I don't know.
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Re: Slavonic Josephus: Master-copy of the Jesus Story?

Post by maryhelena »

ficino wrote:
I'm not a specialist in any of this stuff, save that I read Greek and have read a good deal of Josephus and have poked around in the secondary literature on him and on the different ancient translations of his work. From what I can see, Bowman does a good job of putting SlaJos in a context. If the scholars on whom he relies were right, it does look as though in SlaJos we have a fascinating case of story development - but that it gives us a window into a process of development taking place in early medieval Russia, not in 1st century Palestine.
'Story development"? Just where did the story go? Is there a development line that can be observed? Or are we here just talking about language development in the translating of manuscripts?
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Re: Slavonic Josephus: Master-copy of the Jesus Story?

Post by maryhelena »

ficino wrote:
maryhelena wrote:
Why write a story that has no name for the wonder-doer. No name for any followers/disciples. No mention of the betrayal of Judas. No resurrection on the third day. No mention of the baptism by John the Baptist. No raising of the dead Lazarus. No walking on water. Why write a story so devoid of all the colour of the gospel story and produce a no-name brand? It boggles the mind to think that a Christian would write such a story....
Just a thought: it might be a worthwhile avenue of investigation to look into the cultural exchanges between Jews and Christians in the Khazar kingdom, the only Jewish state in the middle ages, and its Byzantine and Russian neighbors. The person or persons who penned the "additions" in SlaJos - whether they invented them or found them in earlier texts - may not have had the agenda that we today imagine a Christian would have. I don't know.
Sure, heretics are always with us - but so too is the church...

-------------------

haha - the church just dropped into my InBox....photos of the Vatican from daughter visiting Rome....
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