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Vatican confirms Letters of Paul written by Marcion!! Is this legit?
Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2023 7:04 pm
by RandyHelzerman
Check out:
https://digi.vatlib.it/mss/detail/214664
Which for all the world looks like a codex from a vatican library, which gives a latin translation of paul's letters, credited to the authors 'Heironymus (Jerome) and Marcion".
What gives? Anybody here who actually is an expert in latin codices can weight in here?
Source is this not exactly disinterested youtube vid:
Re: Vatican confirms Letters of Paul written by Marcion!! Is this legit?
Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2023 8:43 am
by lclapshaw
RandyHelzerman wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 7:04 pm
Check out:
https://digi.vatlib.it/mss/detail/214664
Which for all the world looks like a codex from a vatican library, which gives a latin translation of paul's letters, credited to the authors 'Heironymus (Jerome) and Marcion".
What gives? Anybody here who actually is an expert in latin codices can weight in here?
Source is this not exactly disinterested youtube vid:
*sigh* that video is all but useless, certainly misleading.
While I personally feel, feel mind you, that Galatians is possibly a creation of Marcion, there is simply no way to know with the material we currently have. All anyone can say with confidence is that it was reported that Marcion had an Evangelion and 10 letters of Paul. That's pretty much it I'm afraid.
Re: Vatican confirms Letters of Paul written by Marcion!! Is this legit?
Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2023 8:50 am
by DCHindley
RandyHelzerman wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 7:04 pm
Check out:
https://digi.vatlib.it/mss/detail/214664
Which for all the world looks like a codex from a vatican library, which gives a latin translation of paul's letters, credited to the authors 'Heironymus (Jerome) and Marcion".
What gives? Anybody here who actually is an expert in latin codices can weight in here?
Source is this not exactly disinterested youtube vid:
Randy,
I would hardly call myself an expert, but I have been a camp follower of these subjects for about 3 decades.
What you have there is a Latin translation of the Letters of Paul with prologues that are commonly believed to be "Maricionite." Various comments are added to the prologues, giving corrections to Marcion's statements by Jerome and Walafrid Strabo (9th century scholar, theologian & poet). Not being a reader of medieval Latin scripts I cannot tell whether these are in the actual text, or are comments by a modern editor. Ben Smith used to be our credentialed Classicist (well, I think he said it was an undergraduate BA) here. I wish him well whatever his current activities are, he was great!
(f. 388r) To the Romans, they preside (f. 386v) preface <s. Jerome> on the body of the epistles of Paul the apostle, Epistle of Paul ap. to the Romans the reason is this [...];
(f. 386v) Hieronymus prologue>, (in ms. argument), First we ask why after the gospels [...];
(f. 387r) argument, Romans are those from Judea [...];
(f. 387v) chapter, On the Nativity of the Lord according to the flesh [...];
(f. 388r) <Marcion di Sinope> arg., the Romans are parts (parts) of Italy [...];
(f. 393r) To Corinthians 1, preceded by <Marcion di Sinope> arg., Corinthians are Achaeans [...], and the chapter or epistle, I beseech you therefore brethren [...];
(f. 398r) To Corinthians 2, preceeding (f. 397v) the chapters, Benedictus God and the father [...] and (f. 397v) <Marcion di Sinope> arg., After the penance done [...];
(f. 401r) To the Galatians, the preceding chapters, I wonder that so quickly [...] and <Marcion di Sinope> arg., (in ms. Prologue after his departure), the Galatians are Greeks [...];
(f. 402v) To the Ephesians, the chapters precede, On the saints that before the constitution of the world, and <Marcion di Sinope> arg. (in ms. Prologue), the Ephesians are A<s>ians;
(f. 404v) To the Philippians, the chapters precede, I give thanks to my God [...], and <Marcion di Sinope> arg., The Philippians are Macedonians [...];
(f. 405v) To the Colossians, the chapter precedes, We give thanks to God [...], and <Marcion of Sinope> arg., Colossians and these as Laotians [...];
(f. 406v) To Thessalonians 1, prefaced by <Marcion di Sinope> arg., (in ms. Prologue), Thessalonians are Macedonians [...], and the chapter, We give thanks to God [...];
(f. 408r) To Thessalonians 2, the preceding chapters, We must give thanks [...] and <Marcion di Sinope> arg., <To> Thessalonians writes the second [...];
(f. 408v), To Timothy 1, the chapters precede, Just as I asked you [...] and [Valafrid Strabi's] Arg., Timothy instructs and teaches [...]; (f. 410r), To Timothy 2, the chapters precede, Do not therefore be ashamed, and [Valafrid Strabi] arg., Also to Timothy he writes [...];
(f. 411r) To Titus, [Valafrid Strabus] presides arg. (in ms. Prologue), he reminds Titus [...] and chapters, the grace of this thing (in ms. king) [...];
(f. 411v) To Philemon, they preside <Marcion di Sinope> arg. (in ms. Prologue), Philemon's familiar letters [...];
(f. 411v) chapter, I give thanks to my God [...];
(f. 412r) To the Hebrews, preeunt [Valafrid Strabi] arg., In the first place it must be said [...] and chapters, Multiphariae and in many ways [...], the epistle is broken off ch. 11, 11 vv. power in the conception of the seed.
Aarrgh! Not
another topic to follow up on!
DCH
Re: Vatican confirms Letters of Paul written by Marcion!! Is this legit?
Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:10 am
by RandyHelzerman
DCHindley wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 8:50 am
I would hardly call myself an expert, but I have been a camp follower of these subjects for about 3 decades.
LMAO @ "camp follower". I've tried out many ways to describe what I am, but none are even near that good
Thanks so much for the translation. Apparently you still are smarter than chatgtp when it comes to latin.
What you have there is a Latin translation of the Letters of Paul with prologues that are commonly believed to be "Maricionite ... I cannot tell whether these are in the actual text, or are comments by a modern editor
*THAT* is very tantalizing. Best I can tell, this is a is a 10th/11th century manuscript? I thought that we only suspected they were Marcionite in modern times. If Jerome already suspected/knew that it (and he could have just walked down to a Marcionite church and asked, no?) that would be something.
Sending out the bat-signal here---and if none of ya'll know, ask somebody who does!
Re: Vatican confirms Letters of Paul written by Marcion!! Is this legit?
Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2023 12:29 pm
by DCHindley
RandyHelzerman wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:10 am
DCHindley wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 8:50 am
I would hardly call myself an expert, but I have been a camp follower of these subjects for about 3 decades.
LMAO @ "camp follower". I've tried out many ways to describe what I am, but none are even near that good
Thanks so much for the translation. Apparently you still are smarter than chatgtp when it comes to latin.
What you have there is a Latin translation of the Letters of Paul with prologues that are commonly believed to be "Maricionite ... I cannot tell whether these are in the actual text, or are comments by a modern editor
*THAT* is very tantalizing. Best I can tell, this is a is a 10th/11th century manuscript? I thought that we only suspected they were Marcionite in modern times. If Jerome already suspected/knew that it (and he could have just walked down to a Marcionite church and asked, no?) that would be something.
Sending out the bat-signal here---and if none of ya'll know, ask somebody who does!
I just used Google Translate on the Latin in the webpages describing the manuscript.
Re: Vatican confirms Letters of Paul written by Marcion!! Is this legit?
Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2023 12:37 pm
by mbuckley3
DCH has done the heavy lifting, just a couple of addenda here.
Jerome is named as the prologue author in the manuscript (386 verso, in red ink). The description's identification of elements from Marcion and Walafrid Strabo derive from C20 scholarship. So no, Jerome does not directly identify the prologues as Marcionite.
Markus Vinzent simply asserts that "one can easily see" that Jerome knew the prologues, and makes an argument for Tertullian engaging with them. For his revival of the theory that they are indeed Marcionite, which has long been out of fashion, see pp.111-131 of his 'Marcion and the Dating of the Synoptic Gospels'.
Thanks for the link to the Vatican archive, which made for interesting homework. But there really should have been a stronger health warning for that video ! Mention of Tertullian's "Vatican paymasters", and a peroration on the world-wide conspiracy of the "Jesus-killers", lead to very dodgy territory indeed...
Re: Vatican confirms Letters of Paul written by Marcion!! Is this legit?
Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2023 1:30 pm
by RandyHelzerman
mbuckley3 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 12:37 pm
DCH has done the heavy lifting, just a couple of addenda here.
Thanks for being batman.
So no, Jerome does not directly identify the prologues as Marcionite.
Alas.
Markus Vinzent simply asserts that "one can easily see" that Jerome knew the prologues, and makes an argument for Tertullian engaging with them. For his revival of the theory that they are indeed Marcionite, which has long been out of fashion, see pp.111-131 of his 'Marcion and the Dating of the Synoptic Gospels'.
I'm curious as to why you don't concur on a Marcionite province for the prologs, can you point me to a forum post where this has been gone over, or give me a thumbnail sketch of why its dubious?
But there really should have been a stronger health warning for that video ! Mention of Tertullian's "Vatican paymasters", and a peroration on the world-wide conspiracy of the "Jesus-killers", lead to very dodgy territory indeed...
*chuckle* yeah, they were being more than a bit disingenuous there.
Re: Vatican confirms Letters of Paul written by Marcion!! Is this legit?
Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2023 5:34 pm
by mbuckley3
RandyHelzerman wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 1:30 pm
I'm curious as to why you don't concur on a Marcionite province for the prologs, can you point me to a forum post where this has been gone over, or give me a thumbnail sketch of why its dubious?
Thumbnail sketches are alien to Marcion studies. Less dense and idiosyncratic than Vinzent, and, more to the point, freely available online, is a Chapel Hill NC dissertation by Eric W. Scherbenske, "Canonizing Paul". The prologues are dealt with at pp.169-196, making a case for the Marcionite origin of seven of them.
It's not that I don't concur, more that solving the puzzle of the prologues seems to end in a cul-de-sac. Take the prologue to Galatians :
"The Galatians are Greeks. At first, they accepted the word of truth from the Apostle, but after his departure they were tempted by false apostles, so that they converted [verterentur] to the Law and circumcision. These the Apostle calls back to the faith of truth, writing to them from Ephesus."
This conforms to what (we think) we know of Marcionism, but is hardly uniquely specific to it.
Likewise, the 'similiter' of the prologue to 1 Corinthians implies that Galatians had priority in the order of Paul's letters, which from other sources we (think we) know to be the case with Marcion's Apostolikon; but that order was not unique to Marcion.
In short, the prologues, at best, only confirm what we (think we) know. They provide no new data.
Re: Vatican confirms Letters of Paul written by Marcion!! Is this legit?
Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2023 6:54 pm
by RandyHelzerman
mbuckley3 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 5:34 pm
Thumbnail sketches are alien to Marcion studies.
...and are therefore preferred by the alien God?
Chapel Hill NC dissertation by Eric W. Scherbenske, "Canonizing Paul". The prologues are dealt with at pp.169-196, making a case for the Marcionite origin of seven of them.
Thanks for the reference.
In short, the prologues, at best, only confirm what we (think we) know. They provide no new data.
*chuckle* well, inasmuch as they are apt prologs for the letters they log pro, in a certain sense we shouldn't expect more info from them than the order and content of the epistles themselves.
But perhaps we're not asking the right questions of them. E.G. what do you make of the prolog to the Romans? "Rome is in a part of Italy."
Who the hell wouldn't know that? Actually, same goes more or less for all the geographical info in the prologs, but still, who was the author of these prologs writing for, if he felt he had to give that kind of geographical information?
Re: Vatican confirms Letters of Paul written by Marcion!! Is this legit?
Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2023 7:37 pm
by mbuckley3
RandyHelzerman wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 6:54 pm
Who the hell wouldn't know that? Actually, same goes more or less for all the geographical info in the prologs, but still, who was the author of these prologs writing for, if he felt he had to give that kind of geographical information?
Not necessarily bizarre.
Greeks, Achaeans, Macedonians, Asians, Italians : Vinzent reckons that the point is that, post 135, these people are definitely not identifiable as 'Judeans'.
Alternatively, there's the Starbucks analogy. Peter Brown once compared Eusebius' conception of the Christianizing of the empire to Starbucks' policy : open a single outlet in Shanghai, and you can colour all of China green on the map. So the prologues capture the empire province by province...