Was Irenaeus's Against Marcion Written Against Clement?

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Secret Alias
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Re: Was Irenaeus's Against Marcion Written Against Clement?

Post by Secret Alias »

Let's compare what Irenaeus says about the unnamed "orthodox" in the last six chapters of Book Five of Adversus Haereses and compare it to what we discovered from parallel citations of scripture in Clement of Alexandria and Philo of Alexandria. The first statement in chapter 31.
5.31.1 Since, again, some who are reckoned among the orthodox go beyond the pre-arranged plan for the exaltation of the just (Quoniam autem quidam ex his qui putantur recte credidisse supergrediuntur ordinem promotionis justorum), and are ignorant of the methods by which they are disciplined beforehand for incorruption (et modos meditationis ad incorruptelam ignorant), they thus entertain heretical opinions (hæreticos sensus in se habentes).
So the two overarching charges leveled against the contemporary "orthodox" Church Father is "upergrediuntur ordinem promotionis justorum" and "modos meditationis ad incorruptelam ignorant" leading to the accusation that "hæreticos sensus in se habentes." How is this explained by previous commentators.
To this number appear to belong the rejecters of Chiliasm, of whom Irenaeus, v. c. 31, says: Quidam ex his, qui putantur recte credidisse, supergrediuntur ordinem promotionis justorum,-haereticos sensus in se habentes; and 32: Transferunter quorundam sententiae ab haereticis sermonibus, &c. Farther, the rejecters of the Apocalypse, of whom Dionysius Alex. περὶ ἐπαγγελιῶν apud Euseb. vii. c. 25, says : Τινές μὲν οὖν τῶν πρὸ ἡμῶν ἠθέτησαν καὶ ἀνεσκεύασαν πάντῃ τὸ βιβλίου κ. τ. λ., who went so far as to hold Cerinthus to be the author.
A far better discussion:

Antonio Orbe , “ Adversarios anónimos de la Salus carnis ( Iren . adv . haer . V , 2 , 2s ) , ” Gregorianum 60 ( 1979 ) : 9-53 . The Irenaean attention to the reality of the body and

Summary (in English): To whom is St. Irenaeus referring in Adv. Haer. V,2,2-3? The saint presents them in a group analogous to the docetists or valentinians (of V, 1,2), the ebionites (of V, 1,3), and the marcionites (of V, 2,1). No one thinks spontaneously of ecclesiastics. Yet analysis has led us to the anonymous group of V, 31 1 f: equivocal ecclesiastics, favoring an imperfect, non-corporeal resurrection (or a « Salus animae », « Dimidia salus »). Adversaries of the « universa dispositio », they were known from the days of St. Justin (Dial. 80,4 f.). Their doctrine was echoed in the Epistula ad Rheginum, offered battle to Tertullian (De Resurrectione), and was unfolded with variations in Origen. Admittedly, at the beginning, the dogma of the resurrection of the dead (or of the bodies), had recourse, as did the heretics, to axioms which had a platonic or stoic slant, and to allegorical exegesis of Scripture. One passed easily from caro to corpus — a term which was very generic and hence ambiguous — as from caro in the obvious sense to spiritual sarx. Irenaeus felt obliged to combat them by removing the equivocations. It did no good to denounce opinions which were just prejudices of pagan ideology. The greater danger lay in their application to Scripture. Both parties believed that they were sons of the Church. However, whereas the anonymous group invoked the spiritual sense, the saint held to the obvious literal meaning. To what could he have recourse to resolve the conflict of the double parallel exegesis? The apostolic « paradosis », very explicit on the dogma of the « resurrectio carnis » (or « corporis »), was not equally explicit on the range of meaning of « corpus » (« caro »). The teaching of Scripture, attainable allegorically or literally, likewise was not self-defining. He determined the argument from analogy, citing dogmas of obvious literal sense: the redemptio per sanguinem and the efficacy of the Eucharist, the Body and Blood of Christ. What would be the meaning of a redemption on the cross by the shedding of allegorical blood? Or a Eucharist of a spiritual Body and Blood? If we were to take the word of Clement and of Origen, with their « double (body and) blood » of Christ, the anonymous writers could defend themselves logically against the arguments of the saint. But not in conformity with the sensus Ecclesiae. Irenaeus had the skill of offering battle on a field where logic finds itself destitute of the most elementary Christian instinct. To the uncontrollable equivocations regarding corpus (or caro) he opposed the single literal sense, in its various applications: to the redemptive death of Christ, to the Eucharist of his Body and Blood, to the resurrection of the just (or the Salus carnis). It was the obvious and humble sense of the ἁπλούστεροι, held in low esteem by Origen and the allegorizers.

"Universam dispotionem ... contemnunt" (v.2,2) "universam reprobant resurrectionem" (V.31.1). Con igual significado para el epíteto . Reprueban la resurrección perfecta , corpórea . Si para los gnósticos sólo cabe resucitar perfectamente en espíritu , y para SAN IRENEO no hay otra resurrección perfecta que la del cuerpo 17 , para los anónimos la única verdadera anástasis interesa a la psique , al hombre interior . El paralelo ( con V , 31,1s ) basta a individuar a los anónimos de V , 2,2 . No son docetas ni ebionitas ni discípulos de MARCIÓN ; sino eclesiásticos , que se creen ortodoxos , a pesar de sus sentimientos peligrosos , heréticos , en torno a la resurrección . Según testimonio de SAN JUSTINO « decíanse cristianos >> ( λεγομένοις χριστιανοῖς ) y negaban la resurrección de los muertos . << Sino que , al momento de morir , sus almas son asumidas al cielo » 18 Es posible que SAN IRENEO aluda igualmente a los anónimos en otra ocasión , contraponiéndolos a los herejes : Quemadmodum igitur his qui nunc sunt hominibus Quemadmodum igitur his qui nunc sunt hominibus ( = haereticis ) ignorantibus dispositionem Dei incredibile et impossibile videtur tantos annos aliquem hominem posse vivere ... : sic et nunc , quamvis quidam ignorantes quamvis quidam ignorantes virtutem et promissionem Dei contradicant suae saluti , impossibile existimantes posse Deum suscitantem corpora in sempiternum perseverationem eis donare ... .. 19 . Los editores leen quidam . Lo mismo Ira . Pero la mayoría de los códices latinos ( C AQ ) registran quidem , con lo cual desaparece la presunta oposición entre los herejes y estos « quidam » . Agréguese el contexto , favorable a quidem Sin acudir a V , 5,2 para individuar a los eclesiásticos anónimos , << despreciadores de la economía cabal » , ¿ habrá modo de ampliar las breves noticias de SAN IRENEO ? Inspirado con probabilidad en el obispo de Lión , escribe una vez TERTULIANO . Plerique ab excessu , animae resurrectionem vindicantes 20 , de sepulchro exire de saeculo evadere interpretantur , quia et saeculum mortuorum sit habitaculum , id est ignorantium Deum ; vel etiam de ipso corpore , quia et corpus vice sepulchri 21 conclusam animam in saecularis vitae morte detineat 22 . Y en otro pasaje: Post haec ad illas etiam Scripturas respiciendum esse dicemus , quae non sinunt resurrectionem secundum animales istos , ne dixerim spiritales ... ab excessu statim vitae vindicari 23 . TERTULIANO apunta las dos corrientes : una , la de una , la de los valentinianos , que identifica la resurrección con la « agnitio veritatis » 24 ; y otra , la que sitúa en la muerte la « resurrectio animae » . Mas no acaba de perfilar sus características , ni se decide a adscribirlas a grupos distintos . Atribuye , al parecer , ambos errores a solos heterodoxos , denunciando a lo más su perverso influjo sobre multitud de fieles sencillos y rudos 25 . Al escribir su ' De resurrectione ' disponía el africano del libro Quinto adversus haereses ' de SAN IRENEO . Mas como no siempre distingue el Santo los dos frentes de batalla el de los herejes y el de los eclesiásticos simpatizantes con doctrinas heréticas opta Tertuliano por reducirlos a uno único , atacando con la ' dimidia salus , dimidius homo , dimidia resurrectio '26 la doctrina de los « despreciadores ( ireneanos ) de la universa dispositio (resp. universa resurrectio)

Resumiendo: Haya que leer « universam dispositionem Dei contemnunt » , o « universam dispositionem contemnunt » , el error delatado por IRENEO ( en V , 2,2 ) se individúa a la luz de los presuntos « ortodoxos » de V , 31,1s . Peculiar a un grupo , tal vez numeroso , de eclesiásticos , sostiene : a ) la resurrección del alma sola ; b ) en otros términos , la anástasis del hombre interior ; c ) tal resurrección ocurre al momento de la muerte , esto es , al salir del cuerpo la psique ; d ) el cuerpo ( carnal ) , abandonado a la corrupción del sepulcro , no resucita ; e ) menosprecia la anástasis cabal , en cuerpo y alma , como desestima la economía cabal , del hombre entero ( ' universam dispositionem ' ) .

Hay caminos indirectos para llegar ahí : el estudio v . gr . de ORÍGENES , de la Epístola a Regino ( ' de resurrectione ' ) , y del tratado tertulianeo De resurrectione . Por su medio será posible tal vez iluminar las premisas que hicieron valer los anónimos ; y de camino descubrir la importancia de los adversarios de ( SAN JUSTINO Y ) SAN IRENEO en los siglos II y III . Orígenes y la Salus carnis ' A mi intento basta examinar el Peri archôn ( = PA ) . Antes de dar a conocer la doctrina propia sobre la resurrección de los muertos , enumera el Alejandrino otras dos : una , de los herejes que niegan la anástasis de los cuerpos 41 ; y otra , de los eclesiásticos que la entendieron mal . Importa recoger esta última que coincide con la doctrina de IRENEO :
- rum Nunc vero sermonem convertimus ad nonnullos nostroaquí entrarían s . JUSTINO , S. IRENEO , TERTULIANO qui vel pro intellectus exiguitate ( ! ) vel explanationis inopia valde vilem et abjectum sensum de resurrectione corporis introducunt . Quos inter- rogamus , quomodo intelligant animale corpus gratia resurrectionis immutandum , et spiritale futurum ; et quomodo quod in infirmitate seminatur , resurrecturum sentiant in quomodo 'resurgat in gloria', et quod 'in corruptione', quomodo ad 'incorruptionem' transferatur.

Quod utique si credunt apostolo quia corpus 'in gloria et in virtute et in incorruptibilitate' resurgens, 'spiritale' iam effectum sit, absurdum videtur et contra apostoli sensum dicere, id rursum 'carnis et sanguinis' passionibus implicari, cum manifeste dicat apostolus: "Quoniam caro et sanguis regnum dei non possidebunt, neque corruptio incorruptionem possidebit.

" Sed et illud quomodo accipiunt, quod dicit apostolus quia "omnes autem immutabimur?"

Quae utique immutatio secundum illum ordinem, quem superius diximus, expectanda est, in qua sine dubio dignum aliquid divina gratia sperare nos convenit; quod futurum credimus hoc ordine quo "nudum granum frumenti aut alicuius ceterorum" in terra seminatum describit apostolus, cui "deus dat corpus prout voluit," cum prius 'granum' ipsum 'frumenti' 'mortuum fuerit'.

Ita namque etiam nostra corpora velut 'granum' cadere in terram putanda sunt; quibus insita ratio ea, quae substantiam continet corporalem, quamvis emortua fuerint corpora et corrupta atque dispersa, verbo tamen dei ratio illa ipsa, quae semper in substantia corporis salva est, erigat ea de terra et restituat ac reparet, sicut ea virtus, quae inest in grano frumenti, post corruptionem eius ac mortem reparat ac restituit granum in culmi corpus et spicae.

Et ita his quidem, qui regni caelorum hereditatem consequi merebuntur, ratio illa reparandi corporis, quam supra diximus, dei iussu ex terreno et 'animali corpore' 'corpus' reparat 'spiritale', quod habitare possit in caelis; his vero, qui inferioris meriti fuerint vel abiectioris aut etiam ultimi et abstrusi, pro uniuscuiusque vitae atque animae dignitate etiam gloria corporis et dignitas dabitur: ita tamen ut etiam eorum, qui ad 'ignem aeternum' vel ad 'supplicia' destinandi sunt, per ipsam resurrectionis permutationem ita corpus incorruptum sit quod resurgit, ut ne suppliciis quidem corrumpi valeat ac dissolvi.



We now direct the discussion to some of our own people, who either from want of intellect or from lack of instruction introduce an exceedingly low and mean idea of the resurrection of the body. We ask these men in what manner they think that the ‘natural body’ will, by the grace of the resurrection, be changed and become ‘spiritual;’ and in what manner they think that what is sown in weakness will be ‘raised in power,’ and what is sown ‘in dishonor’ is to ‘rise in glory,’ and what is sown ‘in corruption’ is to be transformed into ‘incorruption.’ Certainly if they believe the apostle, who says that the body, when it rises in glory and in power and in incorruptibility, has already become spiritual, it seems absurd and contrary to his meaning to say that it is still entangled in the passions of flesh and blood. (On First Principles 2.10.3) https://books.google.com/books?id=ARkaC ... 22&f=false
Last edited by Secret Alias on Tue Oct 31, 2023 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
Secret Alias
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Re: Was Irenaeus's Against Marcion Written Against Clement?

Post by Secret Alias »

The author here identifies an "Origen before Origen" as the "anonymous heretic" of Adversus Haereses 5. The first section in Orbe:
"Universam dispotionem ... contemnunt" (v.2,2) "universam reprobant resurrectionem" (V.31.1). With the same meaning for the epithet. They disapprove of the perfect, corporeal resurrection. If for the Gnostics it is only possible to be resurrected perfectly in spirit, and for SAINT Irenaeus there is no other perfect resurrection than that of the body 17, for the anonymous the only true anastasis concerns the psyche, the inner man. The parallel (with V, 31,1s) is enough to identify the anonymous ones of V, 2,2. They are not Docets or Ebionites or disciples of MARCION; but ecclesiastics, who believe themselves to be orthodox, despite their dangerous, heretical feelings about the resurrection. According to the testimony of SAINT JUSTINE "they called themselves Christians" (λεγομένοις χριστιανοῖς) and denied the resurrection of the dead. << But, at the moment of death, their souls are taken to heaven » 18 It is possible that Saint Irenaeus also alludes to the anonymous ones on another occasion, contrasting them with the heretics: Quemadmodum igitur his qui nunc sunt hominibus Quemadmodum igitur his qui nunc sunt hominibus (= haereticis) ignorantibus dispositionem Dei incredibile et impossibile videtur many annos aliquem hominem posse vivere...: sic et nunc, quamvis quidam ignoramuses quamvis quidam ignoramuses virtutem et promissionem Dei contradicant suae saluti, impossibile existimantes posse Deum suscitantem corpora in sempiternum perseverationem eis I will donate... .. 19. The editors read quidam. Same thing Anger. But most of the Latin codices (C AQ) record quidem, which disappears the presumed opposition between heretics and these "quidam." Add the context, favorable to quidem Without going to V, 5,2 to identify the anonymous ecclesiastics, << despisers of the proper economy », will there be a way to expand on the brief news of SAINT IRENAUUS? Probably inspired by the bishop of Lyons, TERTULIAN once wrote. Plerique ab excessu, animae resurrectionem vindicantes 20, de sepulchro exire de saeculo evadere interpretantur, quia et saeculum mortuorum sit habitaculum, id est ignorantium Deum; vel etiam de ipso corpore, quia et corpus vice sepulchri 21 conclusam animam in saecularis vitae morte detineat 22. And in another passage: Post haec ad illas etiam Scripturas respiciendum esse dicemus, quae non sinunt resurrectionem secundum animals istos, ne dixerim spiritales... ab excessu statim vitae vindicari 23. TERTULIAN points out the two currents: one, that of the Valentinians, who identifies the resurrection with "agnitio veritatis" 24; and another, which places the "resurrection animae" in death. But he does not finish outlining its characteristics, nor does he decide to assign them to different groups. He apparently attributes both errors to heterodox individuals, denouncing at most their perverse influence on a multitude of simple and rude faithful 25. When writing his 'De resurrectione' the African had at his disposal the book Quinto adversus haereses' by Saint Irenaeus. But since the Saint does not always distinguish the two battle fronts, that of the heretics and that of the ecclesiastics sympathizing with heretical doctrines, Tertullian opts to reduce them to a single one, attacking with the 'dimidia salus, dimidius homo, dimidia resurrectio'26 the doctrine of the « despisers (ireneans) of the universe dispositio (resp. universe resurrectio)

Summarizing:

Whether it is necessary to read "universam dispositionem Dei contemnunt", or "universam dispositionem contemnunt", the error revealed by Irenaeus (in V, 2,2) is identified in the light of the alleged "orthodox" of V, 31,1s. Peculiar to a group, perhaps numerous, of ecclesiastics, it maintains: a) the resurrection of the soul alone; b) in other words, the anastasis of the inner man; c) such resurrection occurs at the moment of death, that is, when the psyche leaves the body; d) the (carnal) body, abandoned to the corruption of the grave, is not resurrected; e) it despises the cabal anastasis, in body and soul, as it dismisses the cabal economy, of the entire man ('universam dispositionem').

"Universam dispotionem ... contemnunt" (v.2,2) "universam reprobant resurrectionem" (V.31.1). Con igual significado para el epíteto . Reprueban la resurrección perfecta , corpórea . Si para los gnósticos sólo cabe resucitar perfectamente en espíritu , y para SAN IRENEO no hay otra resurrección perfecta que la del cuerpo 17 , para los anónimos la única verdadera anástasis interesa a la psique , al hombre interior . El paralelo ( con V , 31,1s ) basta a individuar a los anónimos de V , 2,2 . No son docetas ni ebionitas ni discípulos de MARCIÓN ; sino eclesiásticos , que se creen ortodoxos , a pesar de sus sentimientos peligrosos , heréticos , en torno a la resurrección . Según testimonio de SAN JUSTINO « decíanse cristianos >> ( λεγομένοις χριστιανοῖς ) y negaban la resurrección de los muertos . << Sino que , al momento de morir , sus almas son asumidas al cielo » 18 Es posible que SAN IRENEO aluda igualmente a los anónimos en otra ocasión , contraponiéndolos a los herejes : Quemadmodum igitur his qui nunc sunt hominibus Quemadmodum igitur his qui nunc sunt hominibus ( = haereticis ) ignorantibus dispositionem Dei incredibile et impossibile videtur tantos annos aliquem hominem posse vivere ... : sic et nunc , quamvis quidam ignorantes quamvis quidam ignorantes virtutem et promissionem Dei contradicant suae saluti , impossibile existimantes posse Deum suscitantem corpora in sempiternum perseverationem eis donare ... .. 19 . Los editores leen quidam . Lo mismo Ira . Pero la mayoría de los códices latinos ( C AQ ) registran quidem , con lo cual desaparece la presunta oposición entre los herejes y estos « quidam » . Agréguese el contexto , favorable a quidem Sin acudir a V , 5,2 para individuar a los eclesiásticos anónimos , << despreciadores de la economía cabal » , ¿ habrá modo de ampliar las breves noticias de SAN IRENEO ? Inspirado con probabilidad en el obispo de Lión , escribe una vez TERTULIANO . Plerique ab excessu , animae resurrectionem vindicantes 20 , de sepulchro exire de saeculo evadere interpretantur , quia et saeculum mortuorum sit habitaculum , id est ignorantium Deum ; vel etiam de ipso corpore , quia et corpus vice sepulchri 21 conclusam animam in saecularis vitae morte detineat 22 . Y en otro pasaje: Post haec ad illas etiam Scripturas respiciendum esse dicemus , quae non sinunt resurrectionem secundum animales istos , ne dixerim spiritales ... ab excessu statim vitae vindicari 23 . TERTULIANO apunta las dos corrientes : una , la de una , la de los valentinianos , que identifica la resurrección con la « agnitio veritatis » 24 ; y otra , la que sitúa en la muerte la « resurrectio animae » . Mas no acaba de perfilar sus características , ni se decide a adscribirlas a grupos distintos . Atribuye , al parecer , ambos errores a solos heterodoxos , denunciando a lo más su perverso influjo sobre multitud de fieles sencillos y rudos 25 . Al escribir su ' De resurrectione ' disponía el africano del libro Quinto adversus haereses ' de SAN IRENEO . Mas como no siempre distingue el Santo los dos frentes de batalla el de los herejes y el de los eclesiásticos simpatizantes con doctrinas heréticas opta Tertuliano por reducirlos a uno único , atacando con la ' dimidia salus , dimidius homo , dimidia resurrectio '26 la doctrina de los « despreciadores ( ireneanos ) de la universa dispositio (resp. universa resurrectio)

Resumiendo: Haya que leer « universam dispositionem Dei contemnunt » , o « universam dispositionem contemnunt » , el error delatado por IRENEO ( en V , 2,2 ) se individúa a la luz de los presuntos « ortodoxos » de V , 31,1s . Peculiar a un grupo , tal vez numeroso , de eclesiásticos , sostiene : a ) la resurrección del alma sola ; b ) en otros términos , la anástasis del hombre interior ; c ) tal resurrección ocurre al momento de la muerte , esto es , al salir del cuerpo la psique ; d ) el cuerpo ( carnal ) , abandonado a la corrupción del sepulcro , no resucita ; e ) menosprecia la anástasis cabal , en cuerpo y alma , como desestima la economía cabal , del hombre entero ( ' universam dispositionem ' ) .
Clearly the issue at the heart of Irenaeus's Book 5 is the real faith of Christianity. Christians did not originally believe in the judgement of the dead. This we can be certain of. This was a Jewish-Samaritan belief that crept into the original libertine religion of Christianity. Alexandria happened to preserve the strongest defense of the original religious beliefs of Christianity. Let's look a little further into Orbe:
Secret Alias
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Re: Was Irenaeus's Against Marcion Written Against Clement?

Post by Secret Alias »

The next section in Orbe:
Those who despise the full economy of man, paying attention only to that of the soul or inner man, have no qualms about "denying the salvation of the flesh." For them, hell is the world we live in. Following death, the inner man - the psyche - leaves the hells of this world, the body (resp. the flesh) - and takes flight to the supracelestial place. -
Those who say that this world, which is according to us, is indeed hell, but that this body, leaving their inner man, ascends to a heavenly place 28
They did not despise, like the heretics, the person of the Creator; nor did they discuss him as the only true God. But, far from understanding the economy linked to the sensitive body, modeled on the earth, they disqualified the mysteries of the flesh. They definitively sent the worldly body to hell, as if it had come from them 29; and they excluded the health of the flesh 30, just like the heretics. '

« 3. « And they spurn his regeneration » The adversaries of Salvation of the flesh also quarantine the mysteries linked to meat; and in particular its regeneration. Regeneratio » is a misleading term. It is frequently applied to baptism, as in Tit 3,5 31, or to the saving faith of the resurrected Christ 33, 34, efficacy to which Sta. Mary with the 'nova generatio' or virginal generation of her son 35. The anonymous ones here give the " regeneratio " , which they despise , another scope . They refer to the resurrection of the body, conceived as a new generation according to the flesh, or restitution of the human compound. Irenaeus calls it, in the same sense, "second generation."
But since he who created man from the beginning after his resolution on the earth promised him a second generation, Isaiah indeed says thus...36.
Some Paleo-Testamentary testimonies follow 37, and concludes:
Demiurge, therefore, and this Demiurge, therefore, and this, giving life to our dead bodies, as he is here to see, and promising them resurrection, and raising them from the graves and graves, and giving them incorruption... 38.
The adversaries of Irenaeus, who presumed to be orthodox, taught baptismal regeneration and 'regeneratio per fidem'; They believed in the regeneration of man through the work of Christ; They associated her virginal 'new generation' with her, in contrast to Adam's 'old genesis in mortem'. However, they rejected the "regeneration of the flesh." Just as they fought the Salus carnis, they contemptuously contested the resurrectio (= 'second generatio') that preceded it. Enemies of the Millennium 39, they condemned the perfect, corporeal resurrection to the same disregard.

* * *

<< Saying that it (the flesh) is not capable of incorruption >> 40. This is the postulate common to pagan philosophy and heretics shared by the anonymous ones. Irenaeus elaborates on his refutation, with his sights set singularly on the supposedly orthodox. He omits, however, an interesting circumstance. How could these save orthodoxy? There are indirect ways to get there: study v. gr. of ORIGINS, of the Epistle to Regino ('de resurrectione'), and of the tertullian treatise De resurrectione. Through them it will perhaps be possible to illuminate the premises that the anonymous people asserted; and on the way discover the importance of the adversaries of (SAINT JUSTINO AND) SAINT Irenaeus in the 2nd and 3rd centuries.

28 V, 31,2,37ff. — Absent-mindedly attributes A. MÉHAT (Le « Lieu supracéleste » de Saint Justin à Origène, in Forma futuri 288s) to the Valentinians, what Irenaeus assigns to the alleged « orthodox ».

Origen y la 'salus carnis'

In my attempt it is enough to examine the Peri archôn (= PA). Before making known his own doctrine on the resurrection of the dead, the Alexandrian lists two others: one, of the heretics who deny the anastasis of the bodies 41; and another, from the ecclesiastics, who misunderstood it. It is important to collect the latter which coincides with the doctrine of Irenaeus:
But now we turn the conversation to some of our friends who would enter s. JUSTINE, S. Irenaeus, and TERTULIAN, who, either because of their narrowness of understanding (!) or want of explanation, introduce a very base and rejected sense of the resurrection of the body. Whom we ask, how they understand the animal body to be changed by the grace of the resurrection, and the spiritual future; and how that which is sown in infirmity will rise again in how it 'rises in glory', and that which is 'in corruption', how it is transferred to 'incorruption'.
Of course, if they believe the apostle that the body, rising 'in glory and in power and incorruption', has already been 'spiritually' accomplished, it seems absurd to say, contrary to the apostle's sense, that it should again be involved in the passions of 'flesh and blood', when the apostle clearly says: For flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God, neither shall corruption inherit incorruption.

"But how do they receive that which the Apostle says, ``We shall all be changed?''

This change is certainly to be expected according to that order which we have said above, in which without doubt it behooves us to hope for something worthy of divine grace; that we believe that the future will be in this order in which the Apostle describes a "bare grain of corn or of any other thing" sown in the earth, to which "God gives a body as he wills," when first the "grain" of the "corn" itself has been "dead."

For thus also our bodies are to be thought to fall into the earth like 'grain'; in whom that reason which contains the corporeal substance is innate, although the bodies are dead and corrupted and dispersed, yet the word of God itself, which is always saved in the substance of the body, raises them up from the earth and restores and restores them, just as the power which is in the grain of corn, after its corruption and death, repairs and restores the grain into the body of the stalk and ear.
And so, indeed, for those who will deserve to inherit the kingdom of heaven, that reason for repairing the body... By God's command, the spiritual body is repaired from the earthly and animal body, so that it can dwell in the heavens... 4.
Irenaeus and Origen were not children, nor prone to childish judgments. However, Irenaeus, a supporter of the naively understood 'Salus carnis', accuses his adversaries of being vain ('vani...omnimodo'), very light, friends of his adversaries, friends of the sole Salus animae' (resp. ' hominis interioris '), Origenists before Origenem. The Alexandrian, on the other hand, accuses the post-Irenaeum Irenaeans, supporters of the 'Salus carnis', of meager intellect or poor explanations ('pro intellectus exiguitate vel explanationis inopia'), and even of feeling lowly about the resurrection of the body. • The antagonism is even stronger in the pen of SAN JERÓNIMO. The monk of Bethlehem writes:
Therefore the ORIGEN says in several places, and especially in the four books De resurrection 45, and in the exposition of the first psalm and in the Stromata, that there is a double error in the Church; of ours, and of the heretics: "We, simple and philosophic, say that the same bones, and blood, and flesh, that is, the face and members, and the framework of the whole body, will rise again at the last day: namely, that we may walk with our feet, work with our hands, see with our eyes, and hear with our ears , and let us carry around an insatiable belly, and a stomach that digests food. And it follows that he who we believe to be, tells us that we must eat and drink, digest dung, pour out humor, marry wives, and beget children. For where are the genitals, if there will be no marriage? Where are the teeth, if the food is not to be ground? Where is the stomach and the food, if both this and that are destroyed next to the Apostle? himself again crying out: Flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God, nor corruption incorruption [34]." He claims that we are innocent and innocent. "But the heretics, on whose side are Marcion, Apelles, Valentinus, Manes, the name of madness, completely deny the resurrection of the flesh and the body: and to give salvation only to the soul, and in vain to say that we will rise again after the example of the Lord, when the Lord himself also rose in phantasm: and not only his resurrection, but also his very birth, that is to say, is supposed to be seen more than it was. But to dislike both opinions, to flee both Our flesh and the phantasms of the Heretics: because both sides are too much to the contrary; to others who wish to be the same as they have been [Al. they will not be]; others denying the resurrection of the body altogether. There are four elements, he says, known also to philosophers and physicians, of which all things and human bodies are compact, earth, water, air, and fire. Earth in flesh, air in breath, water in moisture, fire in heat. When, therefore, the soul has let go of this perishable and cold little body by the command of God, all things must gradually return to their parent substances: the flesh will return to the earth, the breath will be mixed with the air, the moisture will return to the abyss, the heat will fly down to the ether. And how if you throw a pint of milk and wine into the sea, and wish to separate again what is mixed: indeed the wine and milk which you have mixed will not perish, yet you cannot separate what has been melted: so the substance of flesh and blood will not perish indeed in the original materials, yet not in "to return to the former frame, and not to be entirely the same as they were." But when these things are said, the solidity of the flesh, the fluidity of the blood, the thickness of the nerves, the entanglement of the veins, and the hardness of the bones are denied.
SAINT JERONIMO is in solidarity with the doctrine of the simple, innocent and rustic', ridiculed by ORÍGENES, which is also that of SAINT Irenaeus. He accentuates, without hesitation, the absurd consequences that the Alexandrian believed he discovered in the permanence of the body with its components (bones, blood and flesh). We witness the duel between the ideology of Irenaeus (respons. JERONIMO) and that of JOHN OF JERUSALEM (respons. ORÍGENES). The Alexandrian and his followers, JERONIMO argues, return again and again to the corpus, not to the caro. They mention the resurrection of the bodies, not the flesh. Although, at first glance, they are considered synonyms, they never neglect to discuss the word expensive. They pretend to confuse them; They don't actually confuse them.
Why do you not name flesh instead, so that it means body, and indifferently now flesh, now body, so that the body is shown in the flesh and the flesh in the body? But believe me, your silence is not simple. For the definition of flesh is different from that of body: all flesh is body, not all body is flesh. It is properly flesh, which is bound together by blood, veins, bones, and nerves. Although the body is also called flesh, it is sometimes called ethereal or airy, because it is not subject to touch or sight, and is generally visible and tangible.50
SAN JERÓNIMO chooses the shooting range very well. According to Stoic categories, corpus (soμα) was synonymous with substantia (ovoía), or hyle (resp. Úло × ɛíμɛvov). In a generic sense it was equally applicable to spiritual, ethereal, aerial, invisible diabolical natures and to earthly or visible flesh and blood natures. No Stoic would have confused the caro (σáp) with the corpus (so μa), the species with the genus. In its application to dogma, ORIGIN invoked the resurrection of bodies. He avoided, very knowingly, the term resurrection of the flesh. He was thus free to attribute to the revived believers an invisible ovcia, or to call soμα the congenital substance of any creatures. While the 'anastasis of the flesh' committed him, according to the belief of the 'simple', to the resurrection of a tiny corruptible matter. The antithesis between IRENEAUS AND ORIGINS starts from the very concept of origin: corpus (oμα) or caro. The bishop of Lion adheres to the symbol51 and makes the resurrection of the sarx, obviously and crudely understood, the object of apostolic preaching. He anticipates SAN JERONIMO even in terms.
According to this, flesh is properly bound together by blood, veins, bones, and nerves. 52
AND Irenaeus:
thirst for that disposition which is according to the true man, which consists of flesh and nerves and bones 53
The monk of Bethlehem, usually inspired by the De resurrectione tertulianeo for his Contra Johannem Hierosolymitanum, is closer to Irenaeus than to the African for his declaration of caro. ORIGINS Combat "abjectum sensum de resurrectione corporis" the resurrection of the flesh, obviously understood. There is no difficulty, starting from the generic and stoically conceived oua, in assigning to the rational psyche (resp. intellect, inner man...) a body 54: earthly and carnal in this world, celestial and invisible in the other. The ratio insita (σπερματικὸς λόγος) remains in both stages, which as a ἰδίως ποιόν characterizes the human individual and keeps him safe, through qualitative changes. .

Say ratio insita, εἶδος, ἰδίως ποιόν interests the personal rigor, regardless of the ephemeral regime. The earthly stage, incompatible with man in God, gives way to the invisible celestial regime. 'Ipso facto the earthly substance disappears, the expensive, foreign to the person of the essential man (voc) 55. Symbolized in the 'tunics of skin' with which the Creator clothed man, in his exile to the world (Gen 3,21) 56, remains definitively in exile, with the return of man to God.

..................

A similar result is reached by studying the final fate of corporeal nature.

God created 'per se' (лρoŋyoчμéνws) the intellective nature. The visible world came about following the fall of the 'intellects'. If by axiom the final regime must respond to that of the beginning, with the return of the rationals to the point of origin (åñonatάotaois), the visible world will disappear. However, the dogma of the resurrection of the body prevents this. The Alexandrian indicates two ways of solution: A progressive annihilation of the corporeal matter B - sublimation of the somatic nature, from hylic to spiritual: the corporeal substance perseveres, with a change of only qualities. - Why does the Apostle call visible things 'temporal' (2 Cor 4:18) - does ORIGIN ask?
Is it because there will be absolutely nothing after this in all those future spaces and ages, in which that dispersion of one principle and division is restored to one and the same end and similarity: or is it because their attitude is indeed corrupted in every way...? ―――
They are said to be temporary, he answers - not because they will disappear one day, but because they will change their quality.
For if the heavens are changed, certainly that which is changed does not perish; and if the habit of this world passes away (1 Cor 7:13), the extermination or destruction of material substance is not shown in every way, but there is a certain change of quality, and a transformation of the habit 58.
It was, apparently, the solution of SAN IRENEO 59. But going to ratify it with new lines he ends:
Another will perhaps say that at that end all corporeal substance will be purified and purified, so that it can be understood in the manner of the etheric and celestial of a certain purity and sincerity. However, only God knows with certainty how things will turn out, and if those who are his friends through Christ and the Holy Spirit 61.
Dissatisfied with the Irenean solution, perhaps disagreeing with the permanence, in a divine atmosphere, of the hylic ousia, he first insists on volatilizing it; and suspicious immediately of getting there, he chooses to reserve the matter to God and his friends.

SPANISH ORIGINAL

Los que menosprecian la economía cabal del hombre , atentos únicamente a la del alma u hombre interior , no tienen reparo en « denegar la salvación de la carne » . Para ellos , los infiernos son el mundo en que vivimos . A raíz de la muerte, el hombre interior - la psique - abandona los infiernos este mundo , el cuerpo ( resp . la carne ) — y remonta el vuelo al lugar supraceleste . -

Qui dicunt inferos quidem esse hunc mundum qui sit secundum nos 27 , interiorem autem hominem ipsorum derelinquentem hic corpus in supercaelestem ascendere locum 28

No despreciaban , como los herejes , la persona del Creador ; ni le discutían como único verdadero Dios . Mas , lejos de entender la economía vinculada al cuerpo sensible , modelado de la tierra , descalificaban los misterios de la carne . Remitían definitivamente a los infiernos el cuerpo mundano , como venido de ellos 29 ; y excluían la salud de la carne 30 , igual que los herejes . '


« 3. « Et regenerationem ejus spernunt » Los adversarios de la Salus carnis ponen igualmente en cuarentena los misterios vinculados a la carne ; y en particular su regeneración . Regeneratio » es término equívoco . Se aplica frecuentemente al bautismo , como en Tit 3,5 31 , o a la fecacia salvífica de Cristo 33 resucitado 34 , eficacia a la cual es asociada Sta . María con la ' nova generatio ' o generación virginal de su hijo 35 . Los anónimos otorgan aquí a la « regeneratio » , por ellos despreciada , otro alcance . Se refieren a la resurrección del cuerpo , concebida como nueva generación según la carne , o restitución del compuesto humano . IRENEO la denomina , en igual sentido , << segunda generatio"

Quoniam autem is qui ab initio condidit hominem post resolutionem ejus in terram promisit ei secundam generationem , Esaias quidem sic ait ... 36 .

Siguen algunos testimonios paleotestamentarios 37 , y concluye :

Demiurgo itaque et hic Demiurgo itaque et hic vivificante mortua corpora nostra , quemadmodum videre adest , et resurrectionem eis repromittente et de sepulchris et monumentis suscitationem et incorruptelam donante ... 38 .

Los adversarios de IRENEO , que que presumían de ortodoxos , enseñaban la regeneración bautismal y la ' regeneratio per fidem ' ; creían en la regeneración del hombre por obra de Cristo ; asociaban a ella Su ' nueva generación ' virginal , en contraste con la ' vieja genesis in mortem' de Adan. Desestimaban no obstante la « < regeneración de la carne » . Igual que combatían la Salus carnis , impugnaban con desprecio la resurrectio (= 'secunda generatio') que la precedia. Enemigos del Milenio 39 , condenaban a igual desestima la resurrección perfecta , corpórea .

* * *

<< Dicentes non eam ( carnem ) capacem esse incorruptibilitatis >> 40. He ahí el postulado común a la filosofía pagana y a los herejes compartido por los anónimos . IRENEO se extiende en su refutación , con la mira puesta singularmente en los presuntos ortodoxos . Omite empero una circunstancia de interés . ¿ Cómo podían estos salvar la ortodoxia ? Hay caminos indirectos para llegar ahí : el estudio v . gr . de ORÍGENES , de la Epístola a Regino ( ' de resurrectione ' ) , y del tratado tertulianeo De resurrectione . Por su medio será posible tal vez iluminar las premisas que hicieron valer los anónimos ; y de camino descubrir la importancia de los adversarios de ( SAN JUSTINO Y ) SAN IRENEO en los siglos II y III

28 V , 31,2,37ss . — Distraídamente atribuye A. MÉHAT ( Le « Lieu supracéleste » de Saint Justin à Origène , en Forma futuri 288s ) a los valentinianos , lo que IRENEO asigna a los presuntos « ortodoxos » .

Origen y la 'salus carnis'

A mi intento basta examinar el Peri archôn ( = PA ) . Antes de dar a conocer la doctrina propia sobre la resurrección de los muertos , enumera el Alejandrino otras dos : una , de los herejes que niegan la anástasis de los cuerpos 41 ; y otro, de los eclesiasticos, que la entendieron mal . Importa recoger esta última que coincide con la doctrina de IRENEO : - rum Nunc vero sermonem convertimus ad nonnullos nostroaquí entrarían s . JUSTINO , S. IRENEO , TERTULIANO qui vel pro intellectus exiguitate ( ! ) vel explanationis inopia valde vilem et abjectum sensum de resurrectione corporis introducunt . Quos inter- rogamus , quomodo intelligant animale corpus gratia resurrectionis immutandum , et spiritale futurum ; et quomodo quod in infirmitate seminatur , resurrecturum sentiant in quomodo 'resurgat in gloria', et quod 'in corruptione', quomodo ad 'incorruptionem' transferatur.

Quod utique si credunt apostolo quia corpus 'in gloria et in virtute et in incorruptibilitate' resurgens, 'spiritale' iam effectum sit, absurdum videtur et contra apostoli sensum dicere, id rursum 'carnis et sanguinis' passionibus implicari, cum manifeste dicat apostolus: "Quoniam caro et sanguis regnum dei non possidebunt, neque corruptio incorruptionem possidebit.

" Sed et illud quomodo accipiunt, quod dicit apostolus quia "omnes autem immutabimur?"

Quae utique immutatio secundum illum ordinem, quem superius diximus, expectanda est, in qua sine dubio dignum aliquid divina gratia sperare nos convenit; quod futurum credimus hoc ordine quo "nudum granum frumenti aut alicuius ceterorum" in terra seminatum describit apostolus, cui "deus dat corpus prout voluit," cum prius 'granum' ipsum 'frumenti' 'mortuum fuerit'.

Ita namque etiam nostra corpora velut 'granum' cadere in terram putanda sunt; quibus insita ratio ea, quae substantiam continet corporalem, quamvis emortua fuerint corpora et corrupta atque dispersa, verbo tamen dei ratio illa ipsa, quae semper in substantia corporis salva est, erigat ea de terra et restituat ac reparet, sicut ea virtus, quae inest in grano frumenti, post corruptionem eius ac mortem reparat ac restituit granum in culmi corpus et spicae.

Et ita his quidem, qui regni caelorum hereditatem consequi merebuntur, ratio illa reparandi corporis ... Dei jussu ex terreno et animali corpore corpus reparat spiritale , quod habitare possit in caelis ... 4 .

IRENEO Y ORÍGENES no eran niños , ni propensos a juicios infantiles . No obstante , Ireneo , partidario de la ' Salus carnis ' ingenuamente entendida , acusa de vanos ( ' vani ... omnimodo ' ) , ligerísimos , a sus adversarios , amigos a sus adversarios , amigos de la sola Salus animae ' ( resp . ' hominis interioris ' ) , origenistas ante Origenem . El Alejandrino , en cambio , acusa de exiguo intelecto o de malas explicaderas ( ' pro intellectus exiguitate vel explanationis inopia ' ) , y aun de sentir bajamente sobre la resurrección del cuerpo , a los ireneanos post Irenaeum , partidarios de la ' Salus carnis ' . • El antagonismo resulta aún más fuerte en la pluma de SAN JERÓNIMO . Escribe el monje de Belén : Dicit ergo ORIGENES in pluribus locis , et maxime in libris De resurrectione quatuor 45 , et in Expositione primi psalmi et in Stromatibus, duplicem errorem versari in Ecclesia; nostrorum, et haereticorum: «Nos simplices et philosarcas dicere, quod eadem ossa, et sanguis, et caro, id est, vultus et membra, totiusque compago corporis resurgat in novissima die: scilicet ut pedibus ambulemus, operemur manibus, videamus oculis, auribus audiamus, circumferamusque ventrem insatiabilem, et stomachum cibos concoquentem. Consequens autem esse, qui ista credamus, dicere nos quod et comedendum nobis sit, et bibendum, digerenda stercora, effundendus humor, ducendae uxores, liberi procreandi. Quo enim membra genitalia, si nuptiae non erunt? Quo dentes, si cibi non molendi sunt? Quo venter et cibi si iuxta Apostolum et hic et illi destruentur? ipso iterum clamante: Caro et sanguis regnum Dei non possidebunt, neque corruptio incorruptionem [34].» Haec nos innocentes et rusticos asserit dicere. «Haereticos vero, in quorum parte sunt Marcion, Apelles, Valentinus, Manes, nomen insaniae, penitus et carnis et corporis resurrectionem negare: et salutem tantum tribuere animae, frustraque nos dicere ad exemplum Domini resurrecturos, cum ipse quoque Dominus in phantasmate resurrexerit: et non solum resurrectio eius, sed et ipsa nativitas, id est, putative visa magis sit, quam fuerit. Sibi autem utramque displicere sententiam, fugere se et Nostrorum carnes, et Haereticorum phantasmata: quia utraque pars in contrarium nimia sit; aliis idem volentibus se esse quod fuerint [Al. non erunt]; aliis resurrectionem corporum omnino denegantibus. Quatuor, inquit, elementa sunt, philosophis quoque nota et medicis, de quibus omnes res et corpora humana compacta sunt, terra, aqua, aer, et ignis. Terram in carnibus, aerem in halitu, aquam in humore, ignem in calore intelligi. Cum ergo anima caducum hoc frigidumque corpusculum Dei iussione dimiserit, paulatim omnia redire ad matrices suas substantias: carnes in terram relabi, halitum in aera misceri, humorem reverti ad abyssos, calorem ad aethera subvolare. Et quomodo si sextarium lactis et vini mittas in pelagus, velisque rursum separare quod mixtum est: vinum quidem et lac quod miseras non perire, non tamen posse quod fusum est separari: sic substantiam carnis et sanguinis non perire quidem in originalibus materiis, non tamen in antiquam redire compaginem, nec posse ex toto eadem esse quae fuerint.» Cum autem ista dicantur, soliditas carnium, sanguinis liquor, crassitudo nervorum, venarumque perplexio, et ossium durities denegatur.

SAN JERÓNIMO se hace solidario de la doctrina de los simples , inocentes y rústicos ' , ridiculizados por ORÍGENES , que es asimismo la de SAN IRENEO . Acentúa , sin reparo , las secuelas absurdas que creía el Alejandrino descubrir en la permanencia del cuerpo con sus componentes ( huesos , sangre y carne ) . Asistimos al duelo entre la ideología de IRENEO ( resp . s . JERÓNIMO ) y la de JUAN DE JERUSALÉN ( resp . ORÍGENES ) . El Alejandrino y sus secuaces , arguye JERÓNIMO , vuelven una y otra vez sobre el corpus , no sobre la caro . Mencionan la resurrección de los cuerpos , no de la carne . Aunque , a primera vista , les tienen por sinónimos , jamás se descuidan en discurrir sobre la caro . Fingen confundirlos ; en realidad no los confunden .

Quare non carnem potius nominas , ut corpus significes , et indifferenter nunc carnem , nunc corpus , ut corpus in carne et caro in corpore demonstretur ? Sed mihi crede , non est simplex ' silentium tuum . Alia enim carnis , alia corporis definitio est : omnis caro est corpus , non omne corpus est caro . Caro est proprie , quae sanguine , venis , ossibus nervisque constringitur . Corpus quamquam et caro dicatur , interdum tamen aethereum vel aëreum nominatur , quod tactui visuique non subjacet , et plerumque visibile est atque tangibile 50 .

SAN JERÓNIMO elige muy bien el campo de tiro . Según categorías estoicas , corpus ( soμα ) pasaba por sinónimo de substantia ( ovoía ) , o de hyle ( resp . Úло × ɛíμɛvov ) . En sentido genérico era igualmente aplicable a las naturas espirituales , etéreas , aéreas , diabólicas invisibles y a las terrenas o visibles de carne y hueso . Ningún estoico habría confundido la caro ( σáp ) con el corpus ( so μa ) , la especie con el género . En su aplicación al dogma , invocaba ORÍGENES la resurrección de los cuerpos . Rehuía , muy a sabiendas , el término resurrección de la carne . Quedaba así libre para atribuir a los creyentes redivivos una ovcía invisible , o para denominar soμα a la substancia congénita a cualesquier creaturas . Mientras la ' anástasis de la carne ' le comprometía , según la creencia de los ' simples ' , a la resurrección de una materia corruptible ínfima . La antítesis entre IRENEO Y ORÍGENES arranca del concepto mismo de origen : corpus ( oμα ) o caro. El obispo de Lion se atiene al simbolo51 y hace de la resurrección de la sarx , obvia y crudamente entendida , el objeto de la predicación apostólica . Se adelanta a SAN JERÓNIMO hasta en los términos .

Caro est proprie según éste quae sanguine , venis , ossibus nervisque constringitur.52

E IRENEO :

sed de ea dispositione quae est secundum verum hominem , quae ex carnibus et nervis et ossibus consistit 53

El monje de Belén , habitualmente inspirado en el De resurrectione tertulianeo para su Contra Johannem Hierosolymitanum , se allega más a IRENEO que al africano para su declaración de caro . ORÍGENES Combate « abjectum sensum de resurrectione corporis" la resurrección de la carne , obviamente entendida . No tiene dificultad , a partir del oua genérica y estoicamente concebido , en asignar a la psique racional ( resp . intelecto , hombre interior ... ) un cuerpo 54 : terreno y carnal en este mundo , celeste e invisible en el otro . Permanece en ambos estadios la ratio insita ( σπερματικὸς λόγος ) , que a modo de ἰδίως ποιόν caracteriza al individuo humano y le mantiene a salvo , a través de los cambios cualitativos.

Digase ratio insita , εἶδος , ἰδίως ποιόν interesa lo rigoroso personal , con independencia del régimen efímero . El estadio terreno , incompatible con el hombre en Dios , cede el puesto al régimen celeste invisible . ' Ipso facto desaparece la substancia terrena , la caro , ajena a la persona del hombre esencial ( voc ) 55. Simbolizada en las ' túnicas de piel ' con que revistió el Creador al hombre , en su exilio al mundo ( Gen 3,21 ) 56 , queda definitivamente en el exilio , con el retorno del hombre a Dios .

.......................

A parejo resultado se llega por el estudio de la suerte final de la natura corpórea 57

Dios creó ' per se ' ( лρoŋyoчμéνws ) la natura intelectiva . El mundo visible sobrevino a raíz de la caída de los ' intelectos ' . Si por axioma el régimen final ha de responder al del principio , con el retorno de los racionales al punto de origen ( åñonatάotaois ) , desaparecerá el mundo visible . Lo impide no obstante el dogma de la resurrección de los cuerpos . Dos vías de solución indica el Alejandrino : A progresivo aniquilamiento de la materia corpórea B - sublimación de la natura somática , de hílica a espiritual : persevera la substancia corpórea , con mudanza de solas cualidades . - ¿ Por qué llama el Apóstol temporales ' ( 2 Cor 4,18 ) — se pregunta ORÍGENES a las cosas visibles?

Utrumne pro eo quod nihil omnino post haec erunt in omnibus illis futuris spatiis ac saeculis , quibus dispersio illa unius principii atque divisio ad unum et eundem finem ac similitudinem reparatur : an pro eo quod habitus quidem eorum omnimodis corrumpatur ... ? ―――

Se dicen y son temporales responde - no porque desaparezcan un día , sino porque mudarán de cualidad .

Si enim mutabuntur caeli , utique non perit quod mutatur ; et si habitus hujus mundi transit ( 1 Cor 7,13) non omnimodis exterminatio vel perditio substantiae materialis ostenditur , sed immutatio quaedam fit qualitatis , atque habitus transformatio 58 . Era , al parecer , la solución de SAN IRENEO 59. Mas yendo a ratificarla con nuevas lineas termina:

Alius fortasse dicet , quoniam in illo fine omnis substantia corporalis ita pura erit atque purgata , ut aetheris in modum et caelestis cujusdam puritatis ac sinceritatis possit intelligi . Certius tamen qualiter se habitura sit res scit solus Deus, et si qui ejus per Christum et Spiritum sanctum amici sunt 61.

Insatisfecho de la solución ireneana , desavenido tal vez con la permanencia , en atmósfera divina , de la ousía hílica , insiste primero en volatilizarla ; y receloso enseguida de llegar ahí , opta por reservar la cuestión a Dios y a Sus amigos.
Secret Alias
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Re: Was Irenaeus's Against Marcion Written Against Clement?

Post by Secret Alias »

Orbe's conclusion to the article:
CONCLUSION Who are you referring to? Irenaeus in adv. haer V, 2,2-3? The Saint presents them in a group analogous to that of the Docets or Valentinians (from V, 1,2), the Ebionites (from V, 1,3) and the Marcionites (from V, 2,1). Spontaneously no one thinks of ecclesiastics. The analysis has led us, however, to the anonymous ones of V, 31,1s: ecclesiastics of heretical sentiments, friends of an imperfect, non-corporeal resurrection (resp. of a 'Salus animae', 'Dimidia salus'). Adversaries of the 'universa dispositio', they were already known since the days of s. JUSTINO (dial 80.4s). His doctrine found an echo in the Epistula ad Rheginum, fought against TERTULIAN ('De resurrectione'), and was developed in variety in ORIGINS. Having admitted, in principle, the dogma of the resurrection of the dead (resp. of the bodies), they resorted, like the heretics, to axioms of Platonic and Stoic bias, and to the allegorical exegesis of Scripture. They were as easy to go from the caro to the corpus as a very generic and therefore ambiguous term, as from the obviously understood caro to the spiritual sarx. Irenaeus was forced to fight with them, dispelling misunderstandings. It was not enough for him to denounce prejudices of pagan ideology alone. The greatest danger was in its application to Scripture. Some believed themselves to be children of the Church. But while the anonymous ones invoked the spiritual meaning, the Saint clung to the obvious letter. How - Where to turn to resolve the conflict of double parallel exegesis? The apostolic 'paradosis', very explicit about the dogma of the 'resurrection carnis' (resp. corporis'), was not so explicit about the scope of corpus ('caro'). The teaching of Scripture - allegorically or literally accessible - also did not define itself. He clarified the argument of analogy, invoking dogmas of obvious literal meaning: the 'redemptio per sanguinem' and the efficacy of the Eucharist, Body and Blood of Christ. What meaning does redemption have on the cross, by shedding allegorical blood? or the Eucharist of a pneumatic Body and Blood Relying on CLEMENTE AND ORÍGENES, with their double (body and) blood of Christ, the anonymous ones could logically defend themselves from the Saint's arguments. But not according to the sensus Ecclesiae. Irenaeus had the wisdom to fight in a field where logic was destitute of the most basic Christian instinct. To the uncontrollable misunderstandings around the corpus ( resp. caro ) he opposes the single literal meaning, in its various applications: to the redeeming death of Christ, to the Eucharist of his Body and Blood, to the resurrection of the just (resp. a the Salus carnis '). The obvious and humble meaning of the άπλоúσтερоl, dismissed by ORIGINS and the allegorists. From the literary point of view, the pages of SAN IRENEO analyzed here lead to a very interesting conclusion. Already in the very first chapters of the Fifth book (adv. haer.), the Saint thinks of the heretics of the Salus carnis' and of the ecclesiastics, contrary to the Resurrectio ('Salus') carnis', of V, 31,1s. He characterizes the latter as despisers of the 'Universa dispositio', supporters of the Salus (solius) animae', and friends, to justify his attitude, of the allegorical exegesis of Scripture. They are the same ones who denied, according to s. JUSTINE (dial 80), the Millennium, and will be contested at length by Irenaeus in the final chapters of the work. The Fifth book is harmoniously conceived in opposition to the heretics (Marcionites and Gnostics), enemies of the 'Salus carnis'; and also against those who, within the Church, limit the resurrection and health of man to that of the inner man, with absolute silence and even disregard for the resurrection and health of the common 'flesh'. The length given to the latter, in their first presentation (V, 2,2s), suggests the importance they deserved. All the more dangerous, the better they concealed, under the cover of a 'spiritual' exegesis of Scripture, the quintessence of pagan prejudices. To the modern reader of the adv. haereses Vo, it is up to you to follow in parallel the trajectory of the heretics and that of the Platonizing ecclesiastics, in their common animosity against the vulgar flesh and above all in their recourse to the (allegorical) exegesis of Scripture. What the Gnostics understand on a rigorous spiritual level, the anonymous ecclesiastics conceive on a psychic level. They will have their differences, but more than once they will agree on common points against the 'simple' faith of Irenaeus. The weapon of the Saint will always be the same: the literal, immediate exegesis of Scripture; the simple vulgar imposition of dogmas. According to which flesh means flesh, and blood means blood. ANTONIO ORBE, S.I. SUMMARY To whom is St. Irenaeus referring in Adv . Haer. V, 2,2-3

142 V, 2,3,57ss. Cf. V, 31,2,47ss «post containers corpora et perfecte (óλо × λńρwc) resurgentes, hoc est corporaliter (owμatixõs), quemadmodum et Dominus resurrexit, sic venient ad conspectum Dei».
143 Analyzed above p . 41.
144 Cf. IV, 38,1,28s. See above p. 43s. n. 121. - this very generic and therefore ambiguous term from the obviously understood caro to the spiritual sarx. Irenaeus was forced to fight with them, dispelling misunderstandings. It was not enough for him to denounce prejudices of pagan ideology alone. The greatest danger was in its application to Scripture. Some believed themselves to be children of the Church. But while the anonymous ones invoked the spiritual meaning, the Saint clung to the obvious letter.
Spanish original p. 50

CONCLUSIÓN ¿ A quiénes se refiere s. IRENEO en adv . haer . V , 2,2-3 ? El Santo los presenta en grupo análogo al de los docetas o valentinianos ( de V , 1,2 ) , los ebionitas ( de V , 1,3 ) y los marcionitas ( de V , 2,1 ) . Espontáneamente nadie piensa en eclesiásticos . El análisis nos ha conducido , sin embargo , a los anónimos de V , 31,1s : eclesiásticos de sentimientos heréticos , amigos de una resurrección imperfecta , no corpórea ( resp . de una ' Salus animae ' , ' Dimidia salus ' ) . Adversarios de la ' universa dispositio ' , eran ya conocidos desde los días de s. JUSTINO ( dial 80,4s ) . Su doctrina halló eco en la Epistula ad Rheginum , presentó batalla a TERTULIANO ( ' De resurrectione ' ) , y se desarrolló abigarrada en ORÍGENES . Admitido , en principio , el dogma de la resurrección de los muertos ( resp . de los cuerpos ) , recurrían , como los herejes , a axiomas de sesgo platónico y estoico , y a la exegesis alegórica de la Escritura . Eran tan fáciles en pasar de la caro al corpus como término este muy genèrico y por ende ambiguo —, corno de la caro obviamente entendida a la sarx espiritual. IRENEO vióse obligado a luchar con ellos disipando equívocos . No le valía denunciar solos prejuicios de ideología pagana . El mayor peligro estaba en su aplicación a la Escritura . Unos y otros creíanse hijos de la Iglesia . Pero mientras los anónimos invocaban el sentido espiritual , el Santo se aferraba a la letra obvia . como - ¿ A dónde recurrir para resolver el conflicto de la doble paralela exegesis ? La ' parádosis ' apostólica , muy explícita sobre el dogma de la ' resurrectio carnis ' ( resp . corporis ' ) , no lo era tanto sobre el alcance de corpus ( ' caro ' ) . La enseñanza de la Escritura — alegórica o literalmente asequible - tampoco se definía a sí propia . Precisaba el argumento de analogía , invocando dogmas de obvio sentido literal : la ' redemptio per sanguinem ' y la eficacia de la Eucaristía , Cuerpo y Sangre de Cristo . ¿ Qué significado tiene la redención en la cruz , por derramamiento de una sangre alegórica ; o la Eucaristía de un Cuerpo y Sangre pneumáticos A fiarnos de CLEMENTE Y ORÍGENES , con su doble ( cuerpo y ) sangre ' de Cristo , pudieron lógicamente defenderse los anónimos , de los argumentos del Santo . Mas no conforme al sensus Ecclesiae . IRENEO tuvo el acierto de presentar batalla en un campo donde la lógica se viera destituída del más elemental instinto cristiano . A los equívocos incontrolables en torno al corpus ( resp . caro ) opone el sentido literal único , en sus aplicaciones varias : a la muerte redentora de Cristo , a la Eucaristía de su Cuerpo y Sangre , a la resurrección de los justos ( resp . a la Salus carnis ' ) . El obvio y humilde sentido de los άπλоúσтερоl , desestimados por ORÍGENES y los alegorizantes . Desde el punto de vista literario , las páginas de SAN IRENEO aquí analizadas llevan a una conclusión de sumo interés . Ya en los primerísimos capítulos del libro Quinto ( adv . haer . ) , el Santo piensa en los herejes de la Salus carnis ' y en los eclesiásticos , contrarios a la Resurrectio ( ' Salus ' ) carnis ' , de V , 31,1s . Caracteriza a los últimos , como despreciadores de la Universa dispositio ' , partidarios de la Salus ( solius ) animae ' , y amigos , para justificar su actitud , de la exegesis alegórica de la Escritura . Son los mismos que negaban , según s . JUSTINO ( dial 80 ) , el Milenio , y serán largamente impugnados por Ireneo en los capítulos finales de la obra . El libro Quinto está armónicamente concebido en oposición a los herejes ( marcionitas y gnósticos ) , enemigos de la ' Salus carnis ' ; y también contra los que , dentro de la Iglesia , limitan la resurrección y salud del hombre a la del hombre interior , con absoluto silencio y aun desestima para la resurrección y salud de la ' carne ' común . La extensión otorgada a estos últimos , en su primera presentación ( V , 2,2s ) , da a entender la importancia que le merecían . Tanto más peligrosos , cuanto mejor disimulaban , al socaire de una exegesis ' espiritual ' de la Escritura , la quintaesencia de los prejuicios paganos . Al lector hodierno del adv . haereses Vo , tócale seguir paralelamente la trayectoria de los herejes y la de los eclesiásticos platonizantes , en su común animadversión contra la carne vulgar y sobre todo en su recurso a la exegesis ( alegórica ) de la Escritura . Lo que los gnósticos entienden a rigoroso nivel espiritual , los eclesiásticos anónimos lo conciben a nivel psíquico . Tendrán sus diferencias , pero más de una vez se acordarán en puntos comunes contra la fe ' simple ' de Ireneo . El arma del Santo será siempre la misma : la exegesis literal , inmediata , de la Escritura ; la impostación simple vulgar , de los dogmas . Según la cual la carne quiere decir carne , y la sangre sangre . ANTONIO ORBE , S.I. SUMMARY To whom is St. Irenaeus referring in Adv . Haer . V , 2,2-3

142 V , 2,3,57ss . Cf. V , 31,2,47ss « post recipientes corpora et perfecte ( óλо × λńρwc ) resurgentes , hoc est corporaliter ( owμatixõs ) , quemadmodum et Dominus resurrexit , sic venient ad conspectum Dei » .
143 Analizado arriba p . 41 .
144 Cf. IV , 38,1,28s . Véase arriba p . 43s . n . 121 . -
Secret Alias
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Re: Was Irenaeus's Against Marcion Written Against Clement?

Post by Secret Alias »

The question now becomes - are chapters 31 - 36 of Book 5 merely the conclusion of the Fifth Book (as Orbe has it) or the concluding statement for Books 1 - 5 (as I would have it)? If I am right these 5 chapters that were excised from Western manuscripts tell us about who Irenaeus was writing against COMPLETELY TURNING UPSIDE DOWN our tradition understanding of Adversus Haereses. Let's start with the facts:

1. it is generally acknowledged that Irenaeus grabbed a copy of Justin's Syntagma written c. 140 CE. He expanded it, nailing an account of the Valentinians to the front of it as well as the Marcosians.
2. The "tacked on Irenaeus parts" (= on the Valentinians and on the Marcosians, Adv Haer 1.1 - 21) take on more of a significance in the next four books. Very little attention is devoted to Simon, Basilides etc.
3. Given that Book 5 connects the "tacked on Irenaeus parts" to the "orthodox" figure it has to be seriously considered whether or not the use of Justin's Syntagma and the culling of heretical figures from the middle of the second century was used to stigmatize the same "orthodox" figure. In other words, whether Book 1 was merely a useful set up for Book 5.
4. Moreover, given the fact that Clement's Stromata Book 6 and Protrepticus is cited verbatim in the account of the Marcosians (= the "tacked on Irenaeus part") and Clement's Stromata Book 1 is cited in Adv Haer 2.22 could the entire Adversus Haereses have been a craft way of identifying Clement of Alexandria as an "orthodox" who cites heretical doctrines.

"Irenaeus gives an account of [the heretic] Marcus and the Marcosians in 1.13 - 21 ... Hippolytus and Epiphanius (Haer 34) copy their accounts from Irenaeus, and probably had no direct knowledge of the works of Marcus or of his sect. Clement of Alexandria, however, knew and used his writings." [Philip Schaff note on Eusebius Church History iv.11.4]

" ... for on comparison of the sections just cited from Clement and from Irenaeus [regarding the Marcosians] the coincidences are found to be such as to put it beyond doubt that Clement in his account of the number six makes an unacknowledged use of the same [Marcosian] writing as were employed by Irenaeus." [William Smith A Dictionary of Christian Biography p. 161]

"Clement of Alexandria, himself infected with Gnosticism, actually uses Marcus number system though without acknowledgement (Strom, VI, xvi)." [Arendzen JP. Marcus. The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume IX]
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Re: Was Irenaeus's Against Marcion Written Against Clement?

Post by Secret Alias »

Let's count the number of examples that show that Irenaeus was citing the Stromata. Bucur, thinking Irenaeus was before Clement, provides our first example:
Returning now to the use of Matt 18:10 in the Ps.-Clementine Homilies, it is quite clear that the exegesis of this passage is not very different from that of Irenaeus' Marcosians. Even though the theological frameworks of the texts are very different (one is dualistic, the other rejects dualism, hence terms such as “God” or “Christ” mean different things), both view the “Face of God” in in Matt 18:10 as the enthroned “form” or “body” of God, which they identify with Christ. The fact that the same exegesis of Matt 18:10 occurs in Clement of Alexandria is very significant, because Clement has read all the material discussed so far: Irenaeus' account of the Marcosians, the writings of the Oriental branch of Valentinianism, as well as the source used by the Ps.-Clem. Hom. 17.250

250 According to Colin Roberts (Manuscript, Society, and Belief in Early Christian Egypt [London/New York: Oxford University Press, 1979], 53), Adversus Haereses was circulating in Egypt “not long after the ink was dry on the author's manuscript." For the source behind Clement and the Hom. 17, see Collomp, “Une source de Clément d'Alexandrie.”
Bucur Angelomorphic Pneumatology : Clement of Alexandria and Other Early Christian Witnesses . Leiden : Brill , “ The Place of the Hypotyposeis in the Clementine Corpus : An Apology for the Other Clement of Alexandria . " JECS 17 ( 2009 ) 67 - 68
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Re: Was Irenaeus's Against Marcion Written Against Clement?

Post by Secret Alias »

Number 2 (from the same section of text Bucur acknowledges there was borrowing):
"I am eager to make thee a partaker of my grace, since the Father of all doth continually behold thy angel before His face. Now the place of thy angel is among us: it behoves us to become one. Receive first from me and by me grace. Adorn thyself as a bride who is expecting her bridegroom, that thou mayest be what I am, and I what thou art. Establish the germ of light in thy nuptial chamber. Receive from me a spouse, and become receptive of him, while thou art received by him. Behold grace has descended upon thee; open thy mouth and prophesy." [Against Heresies 1.13.3]

This Jesus, who is eternal, the one great High Priest of the one God, and of His Father, prays for and exhorts men. "Hear, ye myriad tribes, rather whoever among men are endowed with reason, both barbarians and Greeks. I call on the whole race of men, whose Creator I am, by the will of the Father. Come to Me, that you may be put in your due rank under the one God and the one Word of God; and do not only have the advantage of the irrational creatures in the possession of reason; for to you of all mortals I grant the enjoyment of immortality. For I want, I want to impart to you this grace, bestowing on you the perfect boon of immortality; and I confer on you both the Word and the knowledge of God, My complete self. This am I, this God wills, this is symphony, this the harmony of the Father, this is the Son, this is Christ, this the Word of God, the arm of the Lord, the power of the universe, the will of the Father. [Exhort. 12]

I want to impart to you this grace,
ἐθέλω καὶ ταύτης ὑμῖν μεταδοῦναι τῆς χάριτος

I am eager to make thee a partaker of my grace
μεταδοῦναί σοι θέλω τῆς ἐμῆς χάριτος,
That the cultural setting was a "round dance" https://books.google.com/books?id=-jRTE ... 22&f=false
Parallels with Paul https://books.google.com/books?id=WW0MA ... 22&f=false

Ἐθέλω γάρ, ἐθέλω καὶ ταύτης ὑμῖν μεταδοῦναι τῆς χάριτος, ὁλόκληρον χορηγῶν τὴν εὐεργεσίαν, ἀφθαρσίαν· καὶ λόγον χαρίζομαι ὑμῖν, τὴν γνῶσιν τοῦ θεοῦ, τέλειον ἐμαυτὸν χαρίζομαι. Τοῦτό εἰμι ἐγώ, τοῦτο βούλεται ὁ θεός, τοῦτο συμφωνία ἐστί, τοῦτο ἁρμονία πατρός, τοῦτο υἱός, τοῦτο Χριστός, τοῦτο ὁ λόγος τοῦ θεοῦ, βραχίων κυρίου, δύναμις τῶν ὅλων, τὸ θέλημα τοῦ πατρός.

Μεταδοῦναί σοι θέλω τῆς ἐμῆς χάριτος, ἐπειδὴ ὁ Πατὴρ τῶν ὅλων τὸν ἄγγελόν σου διαπαντὸς βλέπει πρὸ προσώπου αὑτοῦ· ὁ δὲ τόπος τοῦ μεγέθους ἐν ἡμῖν ἐστι δι' ἡμᾶς ἐγκαταστῆσαι l. δεῖ ἡμᾶς ἓν καταστῆσαι. Λάμβανε πρῶτον ἀπ' ἐμοῦ, καὶ δι' ἐμοῦ τὴν χάριν. Εὐτρέπισον σεαυτὴν, ὡς νύμφη ἐκδεχομένη τὸν νυμφίον ἑαυτῆς, ἵνα ἔσῃ ὃ ἐγὼ, καὶ ἐγὼ ὃ σύ.

This concept of "partaking of the grace" is so central to the Exhortation that it keeps reappearing in the text:
You have, then, God's promise; you have His love: become partaker of His grace. And do not suppose the song of salvation to be new, as a vessel or a house is new. For "before the morning star it was;" 'and "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Error seems old, but truth seems a new thing.Whether, then, the Phrygians are shown to be the most ancient people by the goats of the fable; or, on the other hand, the Arcadians by the poets, who describe them as older than the moon; or, finally, the Egyptians by those who dream that this land first gave birth to gods and men: yet none of these at least existed before the world. But before the foundation of the world were we, who, because destined to be in Him, pre-existed in the eye of God before,--we the rational creatures of the Word of God, on whose account we date from the beginning; for "in the beginning was the Word." Well, inasmuch as the Word was from the first, He was and is the divine source of all things; but inasmuch as He has now assumed the name Christ, consecrated of old, and worthy of power, he has been called by me the New Song. This Word, then, the Christ, the cause of both our being at first (for He was in God) and of our well-being, this very Word has now appeared as man, He alone being both, both God and man--the Author of all blessings to us; by whom we, being taught to live well, are sent on our way to life eternal. For, according to that inspired apostle of the Lord, "the grace of God which bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us, that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; looking for the blessed hope, and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ."

Ἔχεις οὖν τὴν ἐπαγγελίαν, ἔχεις τὴν φιλανθρωπίαν· τῆς χάριτος μεταλάμβανε. Καί μου τὸ ᾆσμα τὸ σωτήριον μὴ καινὸν οὕτως ὑπολάβῃς ὡς σκεῦος ἢ ὡς οἰκίαν· "πρὸ ἑωσφόρου" γὰρ ἦν, καὶ "ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεὸν καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος". Παλαιὰ δὲ ἡ πλάνη, καινὸν δὲ ἡ ἀλήθεια φαίνεται. Εἴτ' οὖν ἀρχαίους τοὺς Φρύγας διδάσκουσιν αἶγες μυθικαί, εἴτε αὖ τοὺς Ἀρκάδας οἱ προσελήνους ἀναγράφοντες ποιηταί, εἴτε μὴν αὖ τοὺς Αἰγυπτίους οἱ καὶ πρώτην ταύτην ἀναφῆναι τὴν γῆν θεούς τε καὶ ἀνθρώπους ὀνειρώσσοντες· ἀλλ' οὐ πρό γε τοῦ κόσμου τοῦδε τούτων οὐδὲ εἷς, πρὸ δὲ τῆς τοῦ κόσμου καταβολῆς ἡμεῖς, οἱ τῷ δεῖν ἔσεσθαι ἐν αὐτῷ πρότερον γεγεννημένοι τῷ θεῷ, τοῦ θεοῦ λόγου τὰ λογικὰ πλάσματα ἡμεῖς, δι' ὃν ἀρχαΐζομεν, ὅτι "ἐν ἀρχῇ ὁ λόγος 1.6.5 ἦν." Ἀλλ' ὅτι μὲν ἦν ὁ λόγος ἄνωθεν, ἀρχὴ θεία τῶν πάντων ἦν τε καὶ ἔστιν· ὅτι δὲ νῦν ὄνομα ἔλαβεν τὸ πάλαι καθωσιωμένον, δυνάμεως ἄξιον, ὁ Χριστός, καινὸν ᾆσμά 1.7.1 μοι κέκληται. Αἴτιος γοῦν ὁ λόγος, ὁ Χριστός, καὶ τοῦ εἶναι πάλαι ἡμᾶς (ἦν γὰρ ἐν θεῷ), καὶ τοῦ εὖ εἶναι (νῦν δὴ ἐπεφάνη ἀνθρώποις)–αὐτὸς οὗτος ὁ λόγος, ὁ μόνος ἄμφω, θεός τε καὶ ἄνθρωπος, ἁπάντων ἡμῖν αἴτιος ἀγαθῶν· παρ' οὗ τὸ εὖ ζῆν ἐκδιδασκόμενοι εἰς ἀίδιον ζωὴν παραπεμπόμεθα. Κατὰ γὰρ τὸν θεσπέσιον ἐκεῖνον τοῦ κυρίου ἀπόστολον "ἡ χάρις ἡ τοῦ θεοῦ σωτήριος πᾶσιν ἀνθρώποις ἐπεφάνη, παιδεύουσα ἡμᾶς, ἵνα ἀρνησάμενοι τὴν ἀσέβειαν καὶ τὰς κοσμικὰς ἐπιθυμίας σωφρόνως καὶ δικαίως καὶ εὐσεβῶς ζήσωμεν ἐν τῷ νῦν αἰῶνι, προσδεχόμενοι τὴν μακαρίαν ἐλπίδα καὶ ἐπιφάνειαν τῆς δόξης τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ 1.7.3 σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ."
Is the "song" here which Clement mentions akin to prophecy? Yes the new song which Clement is saying about is one and the same with prophecy. Just look at the lines which immediately follow:
This is the New Song, the manifestation of the Word that was in the beginning, and before the beginning. The Saviour, who existed before, has in recent days appeared. He, who is in Him that truly is, has appeared; for the Word, who "was with God," and by whom all things were created, has appeared as our Teacher. The Word, who in the beginning bestowed on us life as Creator when He formed us, taught us to live well when He appeared as our Teacher; that as God He might afterwards conduct us to the life which never ends. He did not now for the first time pity us for our error; but He pitied us from the first, from the beginning. But now, at His appearance, lost as we already were, He accomplished our salvation. For that wicked reptile monster, by his enchantments, enslaves and plagues men even till now; inflicting, as seems to me, such barbarous vengeance on them as those who are said to bind the captives to corpses till they rot together. This wicked tyrant and serpent, accordingly, binding fast with the miserable chain of superstition whomsoever he can draw to his side from their birth, to stones, and stocks, and images, and such like idols, may with truth be said to have taken and buried living men with those dead idols, till both suffer corruption together.

Therefore (for the seducer is one and the same) he that at the beginning brought Eve down to death, now brings thither the rest of mankind. Our ally and helper, too, is one and the same--the Lord, who from the beginning gave revelations by prophecy, but now plainly calls to salvation. In obedience to the apostolic injunction, therefore, let us flee from "the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience," and let us run to the Lord the saviour, who now exhorts to salvation, as He has ever done, as He did by signs and wonders in Egypt and the desert, both by the bush and the cloud, which, through the favour of divine love, attended the Hebrews like a handmaid. By the fear which these inspired He addressed the hard-hearted; while by Moses, learned in all wisdom, and Isaiah, lover of truth, and the whole prophetic choir, in a way appealing more to reason, He turns to the Word those who have ears to hear. Sometimes He upbraids, and sometimes He threatens. Some men He mourns over, others He addresses with the voice of song, just as a good physician treats some of his patients with cataplasms, some with rubbing, some with fomentations; in one case cuts open with the lancet, in another cauterizes, in another amputates, in order if possible to cure the patient's diseased part or member. The Saviour has many tones of voice, and many methods for the salvation of men; by threatening He admonishes, by upbraiding He converts, by bewailing He pities, by the voice of song He cheers. He spake by the burning bush, for the men of that day needed signs and wonders.

He awed men by the fire when He made flame to burst from the pillar of cloud--a token at once of grace and fear: if you obey, there is the light; if you disobey, there is the fire; but. since humanity is nobler than the pillar or the bush, after them the prophets uttered their voice,--the Lord Himself speaking in Isaiah, in Elias,--speaking Himself by the mouth of the prophets. But if thou dost not believe the prophets, but supposest both the men and the fire a myth, the Lord Himself shall speak to thee, "who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God, but humbled Himself," --He, the merciful God, exerting Himself to save man. And now the Word Himself clearly speaks to thee, Shaming thy unbelief; yea, I say, the Word of God became man, that thou mayest learn from man how man may become God. Is it not then monstrous, my friends, that while God is ceaselessly exhorting us to virtue, we should spurn His kindness and reject salvation?
More signs that the "Song" is connected with a prophetic choir:

But let us bring from above out of heaven, Truth, with Wisdom in all its brightness, and the sacred prophetic choir, down to the holy mount of God (κατάγωμεν δὲ ἄνωθεν ἐξ οὐρανῶν ἀλήθειαν ἅμα φανοτάτῃ φρονήσει εἰς ὄρος ἅγιον 1.2.3 θεοῦ καὶ χορὸν τὸν ἅγιον τὸν προφητικόν); and let Truth, darting her light to the most distant points, cast her rays all around on those that are involved in darkness, and deliver men from delusion, stretching out her very strong right hand, which is wisdom, for their salvation.
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Re: Was Irenaeus's Against Marcion Written Against Clement?

Post by Secret Alias »

All the business about men and women at the "bridle chamber" that we see in Irenaeus:
"I am eager to make thee a partaker of my grace, since the Father of all doth continually behold thy angel before His face. Now the place of thy angel is among us: it behoves us to become one. Receive first from me and by me grace. Adorn thyself as a bride who is expecting her bridegroom, that thou mayest be what I am, and I what thou art. Establish the germ of light in thy nuptial chamber (Εὐτρέπισον σεαυτὴν, ὡς νύμφη ἐκδεχομένη τὸν νυμφίον ἑαυτῆς. καθίδρυσον ἐν τῷ νυμφῶνί σου τὸ σπέρμα τοῦ φωτός). Receive from me a spouse, and become receptive of him, while thou art received by him . Behold grace has descended upon thee; open thy mouth and prophesy." [Against Heresies 1.13.3]
It's here also in the Exhortation:
Perchance the Lord will endow you with the wing of simplicity (for He has resolved to give wings to those that are earth-born), that you may leave your holes and dwell in heaven. Only let us with our whole heart repent, that we may be able with our whole heart to contain God. "Trust in Him, all ye assembled people; pour out all your hearts before Him." He says to those that have newly abandoned wickedness, "He pities them, and fills them with righteousness." Believe Him who is man and God; believe, O man. Believe, O man, the living God, who suffered and is adored. Believe, ye slaves, Him who died; believe, all ye of human kind, Him who alone is God of all men.

Believe, and receive salvation as your reward. Seek God, and your soul shall live. He who seeks God is busying himself about his own salvation. Hast thou found God?--then thou hast life. Let us then seek, in order that we may live.

The reward of seeking is life with God. "Let all who seek Thee be glad and rejoice in Thee; and let them say continually, God be magnified." A noble hymn of God is an immortal man, established in righteousness, in whom the oracles of truth are engraved. For where but in a soul that is wise can you write truth? where love? where reverence? where meekness? Those who have had these divine characters impressed on them, ought, I think, to regard wisdom as a fair port whence to embark, to whatever lot in life they turn; and likewise to deem it the calm haven of salvation: wisdom, by which those who have betaken themselves to the Father, have proved good fathers to their children; and good parents to their sons, those who have known the Son; and good husbands to their wives, those who remember the Bridegroom (ἀγαθοὶ δὲ ἄνδρες γυναικῶν οἱ μεμνημένοι τοῦ νυμφίου); and good masters to their servants, those who have been redeemed from utter slavery.
Secret Alias
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Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Was Irenaeus's Against Marcion Written Against Clement?

Post by Secret Alias »

I think I've noticed something that hasn't been noticed before:
He pronounces these words: "May that Charis who is before all things, and who transcends all knowledge and speech, fill thine inner man (ἄῤῥητος Χάρις πληρώσαι), and multiply in thee her own knowledge, by sowing the grain of mustard seed in thee as in good soil." ... He devotes himself especially to women ... by addressing them in such seductive words as these: "I am eager to make thee a partaker of my Charis, since the Father of all doth continually behold thy angel before His face. Now the place of thy angel is among us: it behoves us to become one. Receive first from me and by me [the gift of] Charis. Adorn thyself as a bride who is expecting her bridegroom, that thou mayest be what I am, and I what thou art. Establish the germ of light in thy nuptial chamber. Receive from me a spouse, and become receptive of him, while thou art received by him. Behold Charis has descended upon thee; open thy mouth (Ἄνοιξον τὸ στόμα σου) and prophesy." On the woman replying," I have never at any time prophesied, nor do I know how to prophesy;" then engaging, for the second time, in certain invocations, so as to astound his deluded victim, he says to her," Open thy mouth (Ἄνοιξον τὸ στόμα σου), speak whatsoever occurs to thee, and thou shalt prophesy."
This is developed from Psalm 81:10:
Ἄνοιξον τὸ στόμα σου, καὶ πληρώσω αὐτό
Hear me, my people, and I will warn you—
if you would only listen to me, Israel!
9 You shall have no foreign god among you;
you shall not worship any god other than me.
10 I am the Lord your God,
who brought you up out of Egypt.
Open wide your mouth and I will fill it.

11 “But my people would not listen to me;
Israel would not submit to me.
12 So I gave them over to their stubborn hearts
to follow their own devices.
The passage is interpreted in the very same way as I suggest by Ambrose:
The Lord himself also opened his mouth and said to the apostles , ' Receive the Holy Spirit ' [ John 20:22 ] . By these words he declared that he was the one who said to Moses , ' I will open your mouth and will teach you what you are to say.” Therefore this wisdom, divine, “indescribable,”10 “unmixed and uncorrupted,” pours its grace into the souls of the saints and reveals knowledge, so that they may look upon his glory."
Also Augustine:
"It is clear that not only the instruction that comes from [Moses's] mouth but also its being opened pertains to the will and grace of God. For God does not say, “You open your mouth, and I will instruct you,” but promised both: “I shall open, and I shall instruct.” Elsewhere he says in a psalm, “Open your mouth, and I shall fill it” [Ps 81:10]. There it signifies the will in man to receive what God gives to one who is willing, so that “open your mouth” pertains to the initiative of the will and “I shall fill it” to the grace of God. But here the sense is “I shall both open your mouth and instruct you."
Secret Alias
Posts: 21151
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Was Irenaeus's Against Marcion Written Against Clement?

Post by Secret Alias »

Maybe it's better described as a development of Exodus 4:12:

«ἐγὼ ἀνοίξω τὸ στόμα σου, καὶ συμβιβάσω σε ἃ μέλλεις ¦ λαλήσειν» (Exod. 4, 12)
But consider again that confidence is tempered with prudent caution; for the question, "What wilt thou give Me?"{11}{#de 33:1.} displays confidence, and the addition, "O master," exhibits prudent confidence. And being in the habit of using two causes or two appellations, with respect to the cause of all things, namely the title of Lord, and also that of God, he has in this instance used neither of them, but calls them by the name of master, speaking with caution and with exceeding propriety; and indeed the two apppellations lord and master, are said to be synonymous. (23) But even if the two names are one and the same things, still the titles differ in respect of the meaning attached to them; for the title lord, kyrios, is derived from the word kyros, authority, which is a firm thing, in contradistinction to that which is infirm and invalid, hakyron. But the term master, despoteµs, is derived from desmos, a chain; from which word deos, fear, also comes in my opinion, so that the master is the lord, and, as one may say a lord, to be feared, not only inasmuch as he is able to strike one with fear and terror; and perhaps also since he is the master of the universe; holding it together in such a manner as to be insoluble, and binding up again what portions of it are dissolved. (24) But he who says, "Master, what wilt thou give unto me?" does, in the real meaning of his words say, this, "I am not ignorant of thy overpowering might, and I know the formidable nature of thy sovereignty: I fear and tremble, and again I feel confidence; for thou hast given me an oracular command not to fear, (25) thou hast given to me the tongue of instruction, that I might know when I ought to speak; thou has unloosened my mouth which before was sewed up, thou hast opened it, and hast also made it articulate; thou has appointed it to utter what ought to be spoken, confirming that sacred oracle, "I will open thy mouth, and I will tell thee what thou oughtest to Speak."{12}{#ex 4:12.} (26) For who was I, that thou shouldest give me a portion of thy speech, that thou shouldest promise me a reward as it were my due, namely, a more perfect blessing of thy grace and bounty? Am I not an emigrant from my country? am I not driven away from my kindred? am I not banished and alienated from my father's house? do not all men call me an outcast and a fugitive, a desolate and dishonoured man? (27) but thou, O master, art my country, thou art my kindred, thou art my paternal hearth, thou art my honour, thou art my freedom of speech, my great, and famous, an inalienable wealth, (28) why therefore shall I not have courage to say what I think? and why shall I not ask questions, when I desire to learn something more? But nevertheless, though I say that I feel confidence, I do again confess that I am stricken with awe and amazement, and that I do not feel within myself an unmixed spirit of battle, but fear mingled with confidence, as perhaps many people will easily imagine, a closely combined conjunction of the two feelings; (29) therefore I drink insatiably of this well-mixed cup, which persuades me neither to speak freely without prudent caution; nor, on the other hand, to think so much of caution as to lose my freedom of speech. For I have learnt to appreciate my own nothingness, and to look up to the excessive and unapproachable height of thy munificence; and whenever I know that I am myself "but dust and ashes, " or even, what is still more worthless, if there is any such thing, then I feel confidence to approach thee, humbling myself, and casting myself down to the ground, so completely changed as scarcely to seem to exist.
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