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Re: Was Papias' source Aristion identical with Ariston of Pella?

Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2023 11:08 am
by StephenGoranson
Adding here, for the record or later reference, Stephen C. Carlson's (p. 125) translations of Eusebius, HE about Papias:
3.39.7b
"In fact he often mentions them (_scil._ Aristion and the elder John) by name when he puts their traditions in his volumes."
3,39.14a
"And in his own writing he hands down other accounts of the Lord's words by the Aristion explained above and traditions by John the elder."

Cf. Jerome, On Illustrious Men 18
Ado of Vienne, Martyrologium, 22 Feb.
Notker, ditto
Nicephorus Callistus Xanthopulus, HE 3.20

Re: Was Papias' source Aristion identical with Ariston of Pella?

Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2024 4:47 pm
by Steven Avery
StephenGoranson wrote: Fri Nov 17, 2023 9:31 am Years ago, I wrote a paper affirming that there was a flight to Pella from Jerusalem in the 60s; that too has been disputed. If so, then Ariston of Pella likely heard from earlier Christians. (It's also disputed whether Ariston of Pella wrote Dialogue of Jason and Papiscus, though in presenting a new Greek fragment of it in HTR 2012, 457-65 F. Bovon and J. Duffy affirm Ariston's authorship.)
The Pella flight is important in preterist eschatology :).

The Sinaiticus fragment translated by Bovon and Duffy has a sabbath section, eighth day stuff.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblic ... on_thread/

And shortly thereafter: "So in this work, putting the question into the mouth of Papiscus, he has him say, 7 would like to know why you (Christians) hold the first day of the week in greater honor.' And Jason replies, 'God ordained this through Moses, when he said, «Behold I make the last things as the first.» The Sabbath comes at the end, while the first of the week is the first; for it was on this day that the beginning of the whole world took place through the Word of God. as we are informed also by the book of Moses, when God says, «"Let light come into being," and light came into being.» And the Word which proceeded from God and created the light wasChrist, the son of God through whom all the other things as well came to be.'And after making other good points he continues: 'So you should know from this, sir, that we are completely justified in honoring the first of the week as the beginning of all creation, because on this day Christ was manifested on earth, where in obedience to the commands and the Scriptures he suffered, and following his Passion he arose from the dead; and he rose again on this day, and having appeared to his disciples, i.e., to the Apostles, he proceeded to heaven; and that this day is the day of the ages, falling on the eighth and destined to dawn for the just in incorruption, in the kingdom of God, as alight eternal for the ages, amen. For the Sabbath falls on a day of rest, since it is <the last day> of the week. It is for this reason, then, that we honor the first of the week, as the day that brings us a great wealth of good things.'And this was the teaching of the inspired Luke when he composed the Dialogue of Jason and Papiscus, namely that the Day of the Lord is splendid, illustrious and the first in time of the rest of the days; it is acknowledged as the day of our Savior's nativity in the flesh and of his resurrection from the dead, and likewise of his second coming from the heavens; a day that i without a successor and without limit, since it neither ever comes to an end nor transmits after itself another transient day. That is why it receives from us, beyond the many other days, the honor and the reverence, as the day that brings forth for us an abiding presence of countless good things."

Re: Was Papias' source Aristion identical with Ariston of Pella?

Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2024 5:39 am
by StephenGoranson
Again, here are Stephen C. Carlson's translations of mentions by Eusebius of Aristion. From his book, Papias of Hierapolis [2021] page 125:

3.39.7b
"In fact he often mentions them (_scil._ Aristion and the elder John) by name when he puts their traditions in his volumes."
3,39.14a
"And in his own writing he hands down other accounts of the Lord's words by the Aristion explained above and traditions by John the elder."

It may be that, because that particular John is called "the elder," some seem to recall that Aristion as if he necessarily also was an elder then. With that thought, Aristo of Pella might seem too late to be the same person. But he's not. Aristo of Pella got oral tradition from early Christians who fled to Pella. One person can have lived during the time of Trajan and the time of Hadrian--after all, Hadrian is precisely an example of such.

The Christian community at the time of Papias was relatively small. The number of people with respected oral traditions was relatively small. The number of such notable contemporary individuals named Aristion/Ariston (spellings varied for the same name) might well have been one. Aristo of Pella--whose Christian writing is lost--could well have been, along with John, a source of oral tradition for Papias.
I think it probable.

Re: Was Papias' source Aristion identical with Ariston of Pella?

Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2024 4:49 am
by StephenGoranson
That the Aristion that Papias said he heard from and Aristo of Pella may be the same individual who eventually heard from early Christians who had previously fled to Pella is chronologically plausible.
To be a disciple or adherent of Jesus was a description still used "Even after Jesus' departure fr. this life," according to the Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich Lexicon (2nd. ed. rev.) 485/2. (Still today, such as Disciples of Christ. And, of course, disciples of others: e.g., Socrates of Homer; Jung of Freud, for a time.)
Papias wrote in about 120-125 (Charles E. Hill's estimate), having heard oral tradition. That is certainly within the lifetime of the Christian apologist Aristo of Pella.

Re: Was Papias' source Aristion identical with Ariston of Pella?

Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2024 12:51 pm
by John2
StephenGoranson wrote: Sat Jul 27, 2024 5:26 am John2, above, Wed Jul 24, 2024 6:51 pm, wrote, in part:
"So even when allowing for Aristo to have been born in 75 CE (or even 70 CE), he seems too young for Papias to call him an elder c. 100 CE."

That statement, I think, is misleading. About when Papias wrote, and about who was considered an elder.

I rely on Eusebius' timeline because he had Papias's writings and he places him no later than 117 CE, since all of the events described in EH 3 (the book that Papias is mentioned in) are no later than Trajan's time (with book 4 starting at 110 CE, making Papias possibly even earlier than that).

And Irenaeus also had Papias' writings and calls him an "ancient man." Why would Irenaeus (who was born c. 130 CE) call someone who lived and wrote near (if not during) his lifetime (if Papias wrote c. 120-130 CE) an "ancient man"?

Re: Was Papias' source Aristion identical with Ariston of Pella?

Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2024 1:32 pm
by John2
StephenGoranson wrote: Wed Jul 24, 2024 5:39 am
t may be that, because that particular John is called "the elder," some seem to recall that Aristion as if he necessarily also was an elder then. With that thought, Aristo of Pella might seem too late to be the same person. But he's not. Aristo of Pella got oral tradition from early Christians who fled to Pella. One person can have lived during the time of Trajan and the time of Hadrian--after all, Hadrian is precisely an example of such.

Papias mentions plural elders in EH 3.39.2-4.

2. But Papias himself in the preface to his discourses by no means declares that he was himself a hearer and eye-witness of the holy apostles, but he shows by the words which he uses that he received the doctrines of the faith from those who were their friends.

3. He says: But I shall not hesitate also to put down for you along with my interpretations whatsoever things I have at any time learned carefully from the elders ...

4. If, then, any one came, who had been a follower of the elders, I questioned him in regard to the words of the elders — what Andrew or what Peter said, or what was said by Philip, or by Thomas, or by James, or by John, or by Matthew, or by any other of the disciples of the Lord, and what things Aristion and the presbyter John, the disciples of the Lord, say ...



I take this to mean that "the elders" are people who knew Jesus, since he describes "the words of the elders" as being what Andrew, Peter, Philip, Thomas, James, John and Matthew had said, and they knew Jesus and are called "disciples of the Lord," followed by the names Aristion and John the Elder, who are also called "disciples of the Lord."

The only difference I see between Aristion and John the Elder and these other names is that Aristion and John the Elder were still alive when Papias was writing. Otherwise they are all described as elders and disciples of the Lord.

Re: Was Papias' source Aristion identical with Ariston of Pella?

Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2024 2:20 pm
by John2
And I think the only reason Papias calls John "the Elder" (even though he describes all the people he lists as being "elders") is because there was another "disciple of the Lord" named John (which Eusebius notes as well in EH 3.39.5). But since there was only one "disciple of the Lord" named Aristion, he needn't be described as "Aristion the Elder," anymore than Peter or Andrew needed to be called "Peter the Elder" or "Andrew the Elder."

It was understood that they were all "elders," but since two of them were named John, one was called "John the Elder."

Re: Was Papias' source Aristion identical with Ariston of Pella?

Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2024 9:44 pm
by AdamKvanta
John2 wrote: Sat Jul 27, 2024 2:20 pm And I think the only reason Papias calls John "the Elder" (even though he describes all the people he lists as being "elders") is because there was another "disciple of the Lord" named John (which Eusebius notes as well in EH 3.39.5). But since there was only one "disciple of the Lord" named Aristion, he needn't be described as "Aristion the Elder," anymore than Peter or Andrew needed to be called "Peter the Elder" or "Andrew the Elder."

It was understood that they were all "elders," but since two of them were named John, one was called "John the Elder."
That's a good point and I agree.

Re: Was Papias' source Aristion identical with Ariston of Pella?

Posted: Sun Jul 28, 2024 3:43 am
by StephenGoranson
The lives of the Aristion that Papias heard Christian oral tradition from and
Aristo of Pella, a tradent of early Christian oral tradition
substantially overlapped,
and may be identical.
("...only one...")

Eusebius, much later, apparently had limited information about Papias, not the complete five books. Eusebius and Irenaeus are not in full agreement.
The times Papias heard traditions were necessarily before he wrote his apparently not-often-copied five books, the contents of which have been characterized in different ways.

Remember Lincoln's Gettysburg Address.
"Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth...."
Were all those fathers always old?

Re: Was Papias' source Aristion identical with Ariston of Pella?

Posted: Sun Jul 28, 2024 5:54 am
by MrMacSon
IIUC, Eusebius is the source for both Aristion/Ariston/Aristo/'Aριστίων, in Eccl hist. 3.39.4-7, and Aristion/Ariston/Aristo/'Aριστίων of Pella, in Eccl hist. 4.6.3.

Eccl hist. 3.39:


1. There are extant five books of Papias, which bear the title 'Expositions of Oracles of the Lord' ...

2. But Papias himself in the preface to his discourses by no means declares that he was himself a hearer and eye-witness of the holy apostles, but he shows by the words which he uses that he received the doctrines of the faith from those who were their friends.

3. He says: "But I shall not hesitate also to put down for you along with my interpretations whatsoever things I have at any time learned carefully from the elders and carefully remembered, guaranteeing their truth. For I did not, like the multitude, take pleasure in those that speak much, but in those that teach the truth; not in those that relate strange commandments, but in those that deliver the commandments given by the Lord to faith, and springing from the truth itself.

4. "If, then, any one came, who had been a follower of the elders, I questioned him in regard to the words of the elders — what Andrew or what Peter said; or what was said by Philip, or by Thomas, or by James, or by John, or by Matthew, or by any other of the disciples of the Lord; and what things Aristion and the presbyter John, the disciples of the Lord, say. For I did not think that what was to be gotten from the books would profit me as much as what came from the living and abiding voice."

5. It is worth while observing here that the name John is twice enumerated by him. The first one he mentions in connection with Peter and James and Matthew and the rest of the apostles, clearly meaning the evangelist; but the other John he mentions after an interval, and places him among others outside of the number of the apostles, putting Aristion before him, and he distinctly calls him a presbyter.

6. This shows that the statement of those is true, who say that there were two persons in Asia that bore the same name, and that there were two tombs in Ephesus, each of which, even to the present day, is called John's. It is important to notice this. For it is probable that it was the second, if one is not willing to admit that it was the first that saw the Revelation, which is ascribed by name to John.

7. And Papias, of whom we are now speaking, confesses that he received the words of the apostles from those that followed them, but says that he was himself a hearer of Aristion and the presbyter John. At least he mentions them frequently by name, and gives their traditions in his writings. These things, we hope, have not been uselessly adduced by us.

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/250103.htm
and https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/ ... ion-Aristo
.

That raises the question: what was it that Papias heard from Aristion (and 'the presbyter John')?
  • Some unspecified "doctrines of the faith" as per Eccl hist. 3.39.1 ??


Eccl hist. 4.6 says Aristo of Pella said that "the emperor gave orders that [the whole Jewish nation] was prohibited from and should not even see from a distance the land of their fathers"


1. As the rebellion of the Jews at this time grew much more serious, Rufus, governor of Judea, after an auxiliary force had been sent him by the emperor, using their madness as a pretext, proceeded against them without mercy, and destroyed indiscriminately thousands of men and women and children, and in accordance with the laws of war reduced their country to a state of complete subjection.

2. The leader of the Jews at this time was a man by the name of Bar.cocheba (which signifies a star), who possessed the character of a robber and a murderer, but nevertheless, relying upon his name, boasted to them, as if they were slaves, that he possessed wonderful powers; and he pretended that he was a star that had come down to them out of heaven to bring them light in the midst of their misfortunes.

3. The war raged most fiercely in the eighteenth year of Adrian, at the city of Bithara, which was a very secure fortress, situated not far from Jerusalem. When the siege had lasted a long time, and the rebels had been driven to the last extremity by hunger and thirst, and the instigator of the rebellion had suffered his just punishment, the whole nation was prohibited from this time on by a decree, and by the commands of Adrian, from ever going up to the country about Jerusalem. For the emperor gave orders that they should not even see from a distance the land of their fathers. Such is the account of Aristo of Pella.

4. And thus, when the city had been emptied of the Jewish nation and had suffered the total destruction of its ancient inhabitants, it was colonized by a different race, and the Roman city which subsequently arose changed its name and was called Ælia, in honor of the emperor Ælius Adrian. And as the church there was now composed of Gentiles, the first one to assume the government of it after the bishops of the circumcision was Marcus.

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/250104.htm
.

Both accounts raise the prospect the two Aristos were at least contemporaneous (and may have been the same person)



Pella is said to have been within the eastern foothills of the Jordan Valley, close to the modern village of Ṭabaqat Faḥl, only 27 km (17 miles) south of the Sea of Galilee (Lake Tiberias).

IIUC, the first mention of a 'flight to Pella' is by Eusebius in Eccl hist. 3.5.3, followed by a somewhat-related, fairly rhetorical & even polemic narrative (with reference to "the history written by Josephus"):


But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella. And when those that believed in Christ had come there from Jerusalem, then, as if the royal city of the Jews and the whole land of Judea were entirely destitute of holy men, the judgment of God at length overtook those who had committed such outrages against Christ and his apostles, and totally destroyed that generation of impious men.

4. But the number of calamities which everywhere fell upon the nation at that time, the extreme misfortunes to which the inhabitants of Judea were especially subjected, the thousands of men, as well as women and children, that perished by the sword, by famine, and by other forms of death innumerable — all these things, as well as the many great sieges which were carried on against the cities of Judea, and the excessive sufferings endured by those that fled to Jerusalem itself, as to a city of perfect safety, and finally the general course of the whole war, as well as its particular occurrences in detail, and how at last the abomination of desolation, proclaimed by the prophets [Matthew 24:15-6; Daniel 9:27], stood in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, the temple which was now awaiting its total and final destruction by fire — all these things any one that wishes may find accurately described in the history written by Josephus.

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/250103.htm
.