Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

"Both accounts raise the prospect they were at least contemporaneous (and may have been the same person)"
Thanks, MrMacSon.

I am not the first to propose this. Benjamin W. Bacon (1860-1932) was one of the--how shall I say--elders.

"Elders" are not limited to people who knew Jesus.
"Disciples" are not limited to people who knew Jesus.

To any interested in the recent scholarship on Aristo of Pella, I can recommend (without presuming his view on this thread subject) works by Harry W. Tolley, Jr. including, but not limited to:

Ariston of Pella: An Investigation of His Name, Works and Toponym. University of Pennsylvania Ph.D. Dissertation. Robert A. Kraft, advisor. 2009. 335 pages.

"Ariston of Pella's Lost Apology for Christianity," Hermes 146 (2018) 90-100.

"The Jewish-Christian Dialogue Jason and Papiscus in Light of the Sinaiticus Fragment," Harvard Theological Review 114 no 1 (Jan 2021) 1-26.

MrMacSon wrote: ↑Sun Jul 28, 2024 5:54 am
That raises the question: what was it that Papias heard from Aristion (and 'the presbyter John')?

• Some unspecified "doctrines of the faith" as per Eccl hist. 3.39.1 ??

It seems clear to me that Papias learned from people who knew Jesus ("the holy apostles," as Eusebius calls them) and that Papias calls these people who knew Jesus "elders." As Eusebius puts it, "he received the doctrines of the faith from those who were ... friends [of the holy apostles]."

Eusebius describes what Papias learned from "elders" as "doctrines of the faith," but Papias calls it "the words of the elders," which he goes on to describe as "what Andrew or what Peter said, or what was said by Philip, or by Thomas, or by James, or by John, or by Matthew, or by any other of the disciples of the Lord, and what things Aristion and the presbyter John, the disciples of the Lord, say."

Papias also calls what he learned "the commandments given by the Lord."

So to me, it looks like Papias learned from people who knew people who knew Jesus, and he calls the people who knew Jesus "elders" (i.e., Andrew, Peter, Philip, Thomas, James, John, Matthew, Aristion, John the Elder), and these "elders" taught their followers about "the commandments given by the Lord," who in turn taught Papias. This is also reflected in the title of Papias work ("Expositions of Oracles of the Lord").

Friends of apostles--even if the late account is accurate--does not necessarily mean people who knew Jesus.
People who knew people--even if the late account is accurate--does not necessarily mean people who knew Jesus.
Both the Aristion known to Papias and Aristo of Papias lived later than the time of Jesus.
Those two lives overlapped substantially, and may well be--as both tradents of early Christian oral tradition--the same individual.

StephenGoranson wrote: ↑Wed Jul 31, 2024 11:53 am Friends of apostles--even if the late account is accurate--does not necessarily mean people who knew Jesus.
People who knew people--even if the late account is accurate--does not necessarily mean people who knew Jesus.
Both the Aristion known to Papias and Aristo of Papias lived later than the time of Jesus.
Those two lives overlapped substantially, and may well be--as both tradents of early Christian oral tradition--the same individual.

I take Papias knowing the "friends" of "the holy apostles" (as Eusebius calls them) to mean that Papias learned from people who knew the followers of Jesus. All the people who Papias mentions (in the same sentence as Aristion and John the Elder) were followers of Jesus, and he calls these followers of Jesus "elders" and "disciples of the Lord" (with Eusebius additionally calling them "the holy apostles").

In other words, Jesus' followers ("elders"/"disciples of the Lord") taught people who taught Papias about "the commandments of the Lord," and two of these "elders"/"disciples of the Lord" (Aristion and John the Elder) were still alive in Papias' time. That's how it looks to me, anyway.

"Jesus' followers...taught people who taught Papias."
That means later.

StephenGoranson wrote: ↑Wed Jul 31, 2024 1:23 pm "Jesus' followers...taught people who taught Papias."
That means later.

And Eusebius places Papias no later than 117 CE and possibly even before 110 CE, since Papias is discussed at the end of EH 3 and EH 4 begins at 110 CE. Irenaeus also calls Papias "an ancient man," which fits the timeline of someone who wasn't alive during his lifetime (which is said to be c. 130 CE to c. 200 CE).

So "later" looks to be somewhere between c. 30 CE and c. 100 CE and by c. 100 CE only Aristion and John the Elder were still alive, and their followers taught Papias.

The asserted date range of 30 to 100 for Papias and Aristion is unsupported.
If you are claiming that Aristo of Pella was still alive in 200, as far as I know, you are the first person ever to imagine so. Again, unsupported.

Aristion and Aristo were contemporaries. Maybe, as has been proposed before me, identical.

StephenGoranson wrote: ↑Wed Jul 31, 2024 2:34 pm The asserted date range of 30 to 100 for Papias and Aristion is unsupported.

It's Eusebius' range, in that he places Papias before 110 CE (or before an event he describes as occurring in 110 CE), which means that Aristion and John the Elder were alive and called "elders" by that time (and "disciples of the Lord," like the other "disciples of the Lord" he says followed Jesus who are mentioned in the same sentence).

If you are claiming that Aristo of Pella was still alive in 200, as far as I know, you are the first person ever to imagine so. Again, unsupported.

No, I am saying that Irenaeus was still alive c. 200 CE, and he calls Papias "an ancient man," and I think the timeline that I propose (the one that Eusebius suggests, i.e., before 110 CE) fits that description better than yours, given that Irenaeus was born c. 130 CE.

Aristion and Aristo were contemporaries.

That seems possible to me, if Aristo of Pella was born c. 75 to 100 CE.

Maybe, as has been proposed before me, identical.

That does not seem possible to me. Even if we say that Aristo of Pella was born in 75 CE, I think he would be too young for Papias to call him an "elder" before 110 CE (where Eusebius places Aristion). But someone who lived before 110 CE (as Papias' Aristion appears to have done) could be called an "elder" by Papias and "an ancient man" by Irenaeus.