Interpolation in I Thess 2:14-16?

[neilgodfrey]

Actually my own personal partiality is towards a heavenly Jesus who really did drop down to earth for a short while, in the flesh, so he could be crucified by the Jews.

Hey Neil, you outta put the above on Sheshbazzar's laying cards on table thread!

Yeh, but what if I change my mind tomorrow?

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

Now it happens that I do think that the passage is partially interpolated. However, I base this on whether the Greek definite article (ho = "the") is or is not used with the Greek words translated as God (theos) and Lord (kurios).

IMHO, the original writer of these letters scrupulously used the definite article with theos to designate "the (only/true) God" while an interpolator just as scrupulously did not use the definite article with theos (his "God" was more ethereal and abstract).

Conversely, the original author did NOT use the definite article with kurios because he was using that word as a placeholder for the name of the Judean God (YHWH). My hypothetical interpolator, though, tended to use the definite article with kurios because he understood that word as a title for Jesus/Christ.

Interesting. Thank you David. Yesterday I have also thought of your work on the Paulines. I myself would probably go a step further, because the passage looks like a Pauline sandwich. Elements in I Thess 2:13-16 are repetitions of earlier elements in I Thess 1:2-10 and I Thess 2:1-12 is in the middle.

I Thess 1:2-10	I Thess 2:1-12	I Thess 2:13-16

I Thess 1:2-10	I Thess 2:13-16
1:2 We always thank God for all of you and continually mention you in our prayers	2:13 And we also thank God continually because
1:5 because our gospel came to you not simply with words but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake	2:13 when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God,
1:3 your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ	2:13 word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe
1:4 For we know, brothers and sisters loved by God, that he has chosen you	2:14 from the Jews ... They displease God
1:6 You became imitators of us and of the Lord	2:14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus
1:6 for you welcomed the message in the midst of severe suffering with the joy given by the Holy Spirit.	2:14 You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews
1:10 Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath	2:16 The wrath of God has come upon them at last

Finally, there is no minor reading, an intact structure and within the structure some typical Pauline elements. It seems here is just room to examine a few critical elements. David's observation seems to be a good way to do this.

[Sheshbazzar]

Actually my own personal partiality is towards a heavenly Jesus who really did drop down to earth for a short while, in the flesh, so he could be crucified by the Jews.

Hey Neil, you outta put the above on Sheshbazzar's laying cards on table thread!

Yeh, but what if I change my mind tomorrow?

If you change your mind tomorrow, next week, next month, next year....
It really doesn't matter, as you can only live in TODAY and state with the best of your honesty and integrity what it is that you think, believe, or are convinced of on THIS DAY called 'TODAY'.

I spent some 50 years as a devout and thoroughly convinced Believer. Then came a DAY when I could no longer sustain that belief.
That was the DAY I shook free of the shackles of my former religious beliefs, changed my tune, examined and revised my former opinions and stated beliefs.

If you change your view tomorrow, then you will change your view tomorrow. Who can know and who can change what tomorrow will be or bring?
Perhaps you will learn something new and so important that it will justify a change in your view tomorrow.
But it is your TODAY, your views this DAY that I'm interested in knowing and accounting.

So if the above is your opinion, one that you honestly endorse, have no reticence about 'laying those cards on the table'
IF tomorrow you change your opinion, no one can stop you from picking up your cards, rearranging them and setting them down in the manner that best represents your opinions tomorrow. You can flip flop every day for the rest of your days if you wish
....but of course everything in life has its consequences, and a person expressing flip-flops too often soon loses all credibility.

Only the dogmatic are unable to ever correct or change their views.
I certainly hope you do not suffer from the disease of entrenched dogmatism.

Sheshbazzar

[andrewcriddle]

Given that some version of the passage seems to have been in Marcion, we should IMO be hesitant to regard it as entirely an interpolation.

Andrew Criddle

What about an early interpolation? I see no issue with placing it early.

Two points.

1/ I have doubts about whether we can normally identify very early interpolations. In the case of 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 the possible reference to the fall of Jerusalem at most points to the end of verse 16 being an interpolation.
2/ IMO a very early interpolation would reduce but not eliminate the problem this passage causes for a mythicist interpretation of Paul.

Andrew Criddle

[neilgodfrey]

[
If you change your mind tomorrow, next week, next month, next year....
It really doesn't matter, as you can only live in TODAY and state with the best of your honesty and integrity what it is that you think, believe, or are convinced of on THIS DAY called 'TODAY'.

True enough. I really mean to say it's not a view I feel compelled to "defend" -- it's simply a preferred "maybe" at the moment. I have left my vague enough thoughts on the "laying the cards" thread.

[cienfuegos]

Given that some version of the passage seems to have been in Marcion, we should IMO be hesitant to regard it as entirely an interpolation.

Andrew Criddle

What about an early interpolation? I see no issue with placing it early.

Two points.

1/ I have doubts about whether we can normally identify very early interpolations. In the case of 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 the possible reference to the fall of Jerusalem at most points to the end of verse 16 being an interpolation.
2/ IMO a very early interpolation would reduce but not eliminate the problem this passage causes for a mythicist interpretation of Paul.

Andrew Criddle

The critique of the passage is far more sophisticated than you seem to recognize, judging by point #1.

Point #2 is irrelevant. "Very early" need only be after 70. Anywhere between 70 and 100.

[andrewcriddle]

What about an early interpolation? I see no issue with placing it early.

Two points.

1/ I have doubts about whether we can normally identify very early interpolations. In the case of 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 the possible reference to the fall of Jerusalem at most points to the end of verse 16 being an interpolation.
2/ IMO a very early interpolation would reduce but not eliminate the problem this passage causes for a mythicist interpretation of Paul.

Andrew Criddle

The critique of the passage is far more sophisticated than you seem to recognize, judging by point #1.

Point #2 is irrelevant. "Very early" need only be after 70. Anywhere between 70 and 100.

If one accepts the traditional dating of 1 Clement, then Paul's letters were apparently widely known before 100 CE.
The presence of 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 in all known versions of Paul, Marcionite and orthodox, makes it likely that from the time that Paul's letters began to be widely circulated (apparently well before 100 CE) this passage was included. This would make it a very early interpolation indeed.

Andrew Criddle

[ficino]

I was guessing, maybe not too long after 70.

[PhilosopherJay]

Hi andrewcriddle,

If one accepts the traditional dating of 1 Clement, then Paul's letters were apparently widely known before 100 CE.

According to Wikipedia "1 clement":

The traditional date for Clement's epistle, which has been elicited by the Epistle to the Hebrews's call for leadership from the church in Rome and is permeated with the earlier letter's influence

So the traditional date of 1 Clement is established by the letters of Paul and now we are to establish the date of Paul's letters through accepting the date of Clement! In other words, we should accept the traditional date of 1 Clement because it is an answer to Paul's letter/s and we may accept Paul's letter/s date as being in circulation because it is known by the traditional date of Clement.

Talk about borrowing from Clement to pay Paul. Such an arrangement might maintain our good credit, but it doesn't get us out of debt.

Likewise, we know that Robin was 19 when Batman adopted him at age 40. We know this because Bruce Wayne was 40 when he adopted Dick Grayson at age 19.

The only thing we can be sure of from Clement's use of Paul's letters is that the writer of Clement read at least a few parts of several of Paul's letters. We cannot date Paul's letters or Clement's based on this information.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

If one accepts the traditional dating of 1 Clement, then Paul's letters were apparently widely known before 100 CE.
The presence of 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 in all known versions of Paul, Marcionite and orthodox, makes it likely that from the time that Paul's letters began to be widely circulated (apparently well before 100 CE) this passage was included. This would make it a very early interpolation indeed.

Andrew Criddle

[DCHindley]

... Thank you David. Yesterday I have also thought of your work on the Paulines. I myself would probably go a step further, because the passage looks like a Pauline sandwich. Elements in I Thess 2:13-16 are repetitions of earlier elements in I Thess 1:2-10 and I Thess 2:1-12 is in the middle.

I Thess 1:2-10	I Thess 2:1-12	I Thess 2:13-16

I Thess 1:2-10	I Thess 2:13-16
1:2 We always thank God for all of you and continually mention you in our prayers	2:13 And we also thank God continually because
1:5 because our gospel came to you not simply with words but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake	2:13 when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God,
1:3 your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ	2:13 word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe
1:4 For we know, brothers and sisters loved by God, that he has chosen you	2:14 from the Jews ... 15 They displease God
1:6 You became imitators of us and of the Lord	2:14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus
1:6 for you welcomed the message in the midst of severe suffering with the joy given by the Holy Spirit.	2:14 You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews
1:10 Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath	2:16 The wrath of God has come upon them at last

Finally, there is no minor reading, an intact structure and within the structure some typical Pauline elements. It seems here is just room to examine a few critical elements. David's observation seems to be a good way to do this.

I always get nervous when we think we know what is "typical" of the Pauline letters. There are so many sections containing commentaries and inserted phrases that what we think we are looking at is not what we are actually looking at.

When 1 Thess 1:2-10 and 2:13-16 have the "interpolations" removed (see below) the parallels are not so striking. My hypothetical interpolator often seizes on something that he saw in the original text and then turns it into something else a little later, with the original meaning pulled inside out. Unfortunately, it turns out that what we think are parallels, end up not being so.

DCH

1:2 We give thanks to God always for you all, constantly mentioning you in our prayers,
1:3a remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope [1:3b in our Lord Jesus Christ]
1:4 For we know, brethren beloved by God, that he has chosen you;
1:5 for our good news came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.
1:6a And you became imitators of us [1:6b and of the Lord]
1:6c for you received the word in much affliction, with joy inspired by the Holy Spirit;
1:7 so that you became an example to all the believers in Macedonia and in Achaia.
1:8a For not only has the word [1:8b of the Lord]
1:8c sounded forth from you in Macedonia and Achaia, but your faith in God has gone forth everywhere, so that we need not say anything.
1:9 For they themselves report concerning us what a welcome we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols, to serve a living and true God,
[1:10a and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus] 1:10b who delivers us from the wrath to come.
2:1 For you yourselves know, brethren, that our visit to you was not in vain;
2:2 but though we had already suffered and been shamefully treated at Philippi, as you know, we had courage in our God to declare to you the good news of God in the face of great opposition.
2:3 For our appeal does not spring from error or uncleanness, nor is it made with guile;
2:4 but just as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the good news, so we speak, not to please men, but to please God who tests our hearts.
2:5 For we never used either words of flattery, as you know, or a cloak for greed, as God is witness;
2:6a nor did we seek glory from men, whether from you or from others, though we might have made demands as apostles [2:6b of Christ]
2:7 But we were gentle among you, like a nurse taking care of her children.
2:8 So, being affectionately desirous of you, we were ready to share with you not only the good news of God but also our own selves, because you had become very dear to us.
2:9 For you remember our labor and toil, brethren; we worked night and day, that we might not burden any of you, while we preached to you the good news of God.
2:10 You are witnesses, and God also, how holy and righteous and blameless was our behavior to you believers;
2:11 for you know how, like a father with his children, we exhorted each one of you and encouraged you and charged you
2:12 to lead a life worthy of God, who calls you into his own kingdom and glory.
2:13a And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word [2:13b of God] 2:13c which is at work in you believers.
2:14a For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God [2:14b in Christ Jesus] 2:14c which are in Judea; for you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Judeans,
[2:15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all men]
[2:16 by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they may be saved -- so as always to fill up the measure of their sins. But God's wrath has come upon them at last!]