The Problem With Jesus Being the Christ

[Secret Alias]

When my son used to come off the field from a soccer game. "I was the best player." I was like, no not really. He was like, "but I did this turn and I did this pass." I would be like, "but you didn't score any goals or have any assists." But he would be like, but I could have scored this goal on this shot or I could have set up this goal on this pass or this through ball. Finally I'd be like, "OK you were the best player."

Jesus isn't the Christ. Eventually history gets re-written by persistence.

[StephenGoranson]

Argument by persistence
or
argument against persistence?
or neither both, arguably

[Secret Alias]

Jesus is not THE Christ envisioned by 2500 years of Jews. Hence the Dispute at Barcelona. https://youtu.be/lIyhC0vnRYc?si=jIEXWOsRV9HLjRi3

Not a single Jew EVER who wasn't born with mental retardation. Impossible that Jesus was the guy envisioned by those who put forth THE Christ. Not an insult against Christianity because real Christianity, the Christianity which started from the actual founders of the religion knew better, because they were Samaritans and Jews. This is not THE Christ.

I am convinced of this and the fact I am too stupid to know how to use the Youtube link.

[Secret Alias]

What the Marcionites do for us is present a way that everyone is right. Jesus is great guy. The Jews don't deserve to die. And the third century Church Fathers are losers. Everyone wins. Who's "for" Irenaeus anyway? Are there people walking around in matching Irenaeus jump suits? I don't think so.

[Secret Alias]

And people act like the modern alliance between what is left of religious Jewry and Christians "was the way things always were." What is Christianity today isn't for the most part Christianity. What passes as Judaism today wasn't Judaism. Jews knew Jesus wasn't the Christ. They had more in common with Marcionism than modern Christians.

[Secret Alias]

And speaking of khazarim, my wife has taken an interest in the survivors of French concentration camps for some reason. We're going to Paris for the French Open and as most of the part of my maternal family that didn't survive in Switzerland (my mother, grandmother, great grandparents) were stuck in these camps. It turns out that Arthur Koestler was transported to Djelfa from Vernet along with my grandfather. Believe it or not I was watching Sarah's Key and most people don't know that there was a "first class" and "second class" in the Holocaust at least in France (where else). If you were an intellectual of some notoriety you survived. Koestler is an example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Koestler (I wonder if my wife knows that Roland Garros was used as a concentration camp). Max Aub https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Aub. My grandfather . From what I figured out he and the rest of the intellectual communists/socialists who were captured in 1939 and interned immediately didn't die with the regular tier Jews. North Africa was awful. But it was still better than going to the death camps. The odd thing is that khazarim, Koestler's thing (which has since been mostly disproved by DNA tests) was just what French and Western European Jews muttered about Eastern European Jewry. "Kharzarim!" Mongrels. Anyway thought I'd mention it for no particular reason. I really am proud to be this kind of Jew.

And technically the Jews who were internet at Roland Garros were not there because they were Jewish. They were prominent communists and leftists.

[rgprice]

I don't think anything in the NT even attempts to make any argument that Jesus was the messiah that the Jews were expecting. I guess the closest thing would be Matthew. But other than Matthew, which misinterprets everything, nothing really makes that case. Clearly this wasn't the original claim being made.

[Secret Alias]

The messiah the Jews were expecting? There was another kind? The Polish messiah? The Latvian messiah?

[rgprice]

The messiah the Jews were expecting? There was another kind? The Polish messiah? The Latvian messiah?

Well, Paul uses the term Christos (messiah) but never describes Jesus in terms of the Jewish messiah...

[MrMacSon]

There's John 4.

The key verses are 19, 23, 25, 29, 42b, and 47f (mostly the NIV here):

[When in Judea] 1 Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that he was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John, 2 although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples.

Jesus travels through Samaria and stops at Jacob's well where he meets a Samaritan woman and asks her if she will give him a drink.

9 The Samaritan woman said to him, “You are a Jew and I am a Samaritan woman. How can you ask me for a drink?” (For Jews [either] do not associate with Samaritans [or do not use dishes Samaritans have used].)

10 Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.”

11 “Sir,” the woman said, “you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water? 12 Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his livestock?”

13 Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14 but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

15 The woman said to him, “Sir, give me this water so that I won’t get thirsty and have to keep coming here to draw water.”

16 He told her, “Go, call your husband and come back.”

17 “I have no husband,” she replied.

Jesus said to her, “You are right when you say you have no husband. 18 The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true.”

19 “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”

21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah [μεϲϲιαϲ; Μεσσίας] is coming, who is called χϲ. When he comes, he will tell us all things.”

26 Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”

27 Just then his disciples returned and were surprised to find him talking with a woman. But no one asked, “What do you want?” or “Why are you talking with her?”

28 Then, leaving her water jar, the woman went back to the town and said to the people, 29 “Come, see a man who told me everything I ever did. Could this be the Christ [ο χϲ]?” 30 They came out of the town and made their way toward him.

< in vv.32-8: Jesus interacts with the disciples >

39 Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him, they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers.

42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world/cosmos [ὁ Σωτὴρ τοῦ κόσμου].”
.

See https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/4.htm
and https://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/manu ... omSlider=0