Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

The Gospel Of Mark reads as if it was an abbreviated Matthew or Luke. Perhaps that's where the reference to being "short-measured" comes from.

Yes, and the gospel accorded to Mark wasn't highly regarded in those times. So reference to it seems to be to further diminish Marcion's gospel and theology.

Secret Alias wrote: ↑Thu Mar 07, 2024 11:46 am I can't believe that no one has suggested this before.

κολοβοδάκτυλος means "truncated-length" (or "short-measured")

κολοβός = cut
δάκτυλος = measure

The measures of Herodotus are almost all drawn either from portions of the human body , or from bodily actions easily performable . His smallest measure is the δάκτυλος , or " finger's breadth , " four of which go to the palm or hand's breadth. https://books.google.com/books?id=tnE-A ... 22&f=false

οὔτε Μάρκος ὁ κολοβοδάκτυλος ἀνήγγειλαν Mark the cut-lengthed does not announce is clearly identified as the equivalent of "τούτων γὰρ οὐδὲν ἐν τῷ κατὰ Μάρκον εὐαγγελίῳ γέγραπται" the things written in the (canonical) according to Mark.

I know. I know. Morton Smith forged the Letter to Theodore. I know.

Cut finger, eh? I think this deserves an entire huge thread about how this proves with absolute certainty that the Japanese yakuza practice of chopping off a pinky to show contrition was derived 100%, maybe 232%, from the Secret Gospel of Marque.

DCH (not being serious, of course <aarrgghh>)

The royal cubit, also known as pharaonic, was divided into 28 fingers (the finger was 18,75 mm wide) but has other partitions, for example the palm corresponded to 4 fingers and the fist to 6 fingers. The short cubit was instead divided into 24 fingers [1, 2].

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblica ... 0.94%20in).

Menachem 41b "The Gemara notes that Rav Pappa said: The handbreadth of the Torah is four fingerbreadths if measured by the thumb; six fingerbreadths if measured by the smallest finger; and five if measured by the third, i.e., the middle, finger."

אצבע seems to be applicable to all fingers "short" pinky or "great" thumb

A thread has been split out ("Marcion and the Philosophers") starting from:

MrMacSon wrote: ↑Sat Mar 09, 2024 5:40 pm * yeah, Refut. 7.30.1 continues

Thanks for the text:

Secret Alias wrote: ↑Thu Mar 07, 2024 11:46 am I can't believe that no one has suggested this before.

κολοβοδάκτυλος means "truncated-length" (or "short-measured")

κολοβός = cut
δάκτυλος = measure

The measures of Herodotus are almost all drawn either from portions of the human body , or from bodily actions easily performable . His smallest measure is the δάκτυλος , or " finger's breadth , " four of which go to the palm or hand's breadth. https://books.google.com/books?id=tnE-A ... 22&f=false

οὔτε Μάρκος ὁ κολοβοδάκτυλος ἀνήγγειλαν Mark the cut-lengthed does not announce is clearly identified as the equivalent of "τούτων γὰρ οὐδὲν ἐν τῷ κατὰ Μάρκον εὐαγγελίῳ γέγραπται" the things written in the (canonical) according to Mark.

Secret Alias wrote: ↑Sat Mar 09, 2024 4:59 pm Bingo! Jewish scrolls measured by fingers. https://books.google.com/books?id=kesUE ... nt&f=false

I gave this a look.

We must wonder: who does Μάρκος ὁ κολοβοδάκτυλος describe, and who came up with this description?

(a) does this describe the author of "ἐν τῷ <κατὰ> Μάρκον εὐαγγελίῳ"?
(b) does this describe Μαρκίων or "Marcion's reputation as the abbreviator of a gospel"?
(c) both?

And if it describes an author of the gospel text, could Μάρκος ὁ κολοβοδάκτυλος be a Marcionite reference against Mark?

We should start with what seems more amenable to interpretation, to build up some context.


The general shape of these arguments (comparison of good and evil, arguing against the Demiurge) suggest something like the Antitheses, elsewhere described in the following manner in Against Marcion:


We can understand this as saying that there were essentially three texts commonly in use here: the Gospel, the Apostle's letters, and the Antitheses, the last of which supplies "arguments from the comparison of good and evil" to make it plain that there is a greater God (who is good, Agathos) known from the Gospel than the mere creator god declared in the Law. I'm not saying they were given equal authority; indeed, the Antitheses as described rhetorically grounds itself in the logic of analysis, using reference to the Gospel, and not a claim of inspiration itself. The fact that the Antitheses of Marcion was not in any sense scripture would have been common ground here.

Now we can start to make sense of why Paul is mentioned here. The reference to Paul completes a reference based on what the Marcionites considered to be scripture. If we temporarily telescope that phrase to read [scripture] and the latter to say "the gospel" then, we get:


The references to Mark are the most interesting thing here, and I'm not underplaying them. I'm just trying not to let them overshadow the rest of the sense of the passage here (it being so interesting is primarily because of the assumptions and interests and debates we're bringing to the text! so we may lose sense of the text if we focus on it exclusively).

What I see here is that the text is talking about a retort to bring to those who attempt to bring forward Antitheses style logical arguments, "from the comparison of good and evil," to the effect that the Gospel god is a different Good god, the conclusion of these "dogs" that "bay against the Demiurge" (the lesser, not actually Good, so-called creator god of the Law).

The retort is this: But none of this is written in the gospel.

Sure, you have your argument! Your logic! Your philosophy! Your Antitheses! But don't you remember how Paul wrote "This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words" (1 Cor 2:13). And "Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe." (1 Cor 1:20-21) I'm not saying that these citations are in view or would even have been necessary. I am just suggesting that this kind of argument could have been understood on both sides here.

So the kind of ammunition being provided to disputants with the Marcionites is that these arguments are an appendix to the gospel but that they are not actually in the gospel. They are delineated separately. They can be ignored as the folly of philosophy and human wisdom.

It's pretty clear then that the text is talking about the extent of scripture for the Marcionites, both from the double reference to Paul and Gospel and what is (not) in them, and from the reference to these kinds of arguments (Antitheses) not forming part of the scripture. Which also means, as I suppose most everyone here has already concluded, these references have something to do with an understanding of the Gospel, used by the Marcionites, as reflected in the rhetoric of the writer of this Refutation of All Heresies. With that, we can look further at what is said here about Mark.

Proceeding to parts of the text that are more difficult:


I am left wondering: none of what? None of the arguments? Why are we talking about Antitheses-style arguments either being in, or not being in, the gospel according to Mark? Is this simply a reference to the fact that the gospel didn't have such arguments because they were part of a separately attached Antitheses? Perhaps.

Let's try out the idea that there's more to it, seeing if it is a productive hypothesis. If there is more to it, then a few things are entailed: (a) gospel-like material that reads like Antitheses-style arguments, (b) the absence of such material in the gospel according to Mark, and (c) the presence of this material in other gospel texts. Tentatively (there are other possibilities), I would also suggest that the most obvious consequence would be that (d) Marcionites being able to recognize the strength of the retort because their gospel didn't have this material but their Antitheses text did.

It seems eminently good sense to bring in the data of my thread here on "Markan Marcion: A Contrarian Synopsis," here particularly the synoptic arrangement of the passages attested in Against Marcion that were arguably based on some kind of source, which appears to have been attempted in a comprehensive way practically for the first time in that thread.

Peter Kirby wrote: ↑Sun Jun 18, 2023 1:28 pm And here are the corresponding texts. Again, no real effort has been made yet to find the particular wording of Marcion's gospel.

A double dagger (‡) surrounds that which is explictly noted to be absent or altered.

Mark	Luke	Matthew	Thomas
	3.1 In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar...
1.21 And they went into Capernaum; and immediately on the sabbath he entered the synagogue and taught.	4.31 And he went down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee. And he was teaching them on the sabbath	9.1 And getting into a boat he crossed over and came to his own city
1.22 And they were astonished at his teaching, for he taught them as one who had authority, and not as the scribes.	4.32 and they were astonished at his teaching, for his word was with authority.	7.28 And when Jesus finished these sayings, the crowds were astonished at his teaching, 7.29 for he taught them as one who had authority, and not as their scribes.
1.24 and he cried out, "What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are, the Holy One of God."	4.34 "Ah! What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are, the Holy One of God."
1.25 But Jesus rebuked him, saying, "Be silent, and come out of him!"	4.35 But Jesus rebuked him, saying, "Be silent, and come out of him!" And when the demon had thrown him down in the midst, he came out of him, having done him no harm.
1.32 That evening, at sundown, they brought to him all who were sick or possessed with demons. 1.33 And the whole city was gathered together about the door. 1.34 And he healed many who were sick with various diseases, and cast out many demons; and he would not permit the demons to speak, because they knew him.	4.40 Now when the sun was setting, all those who had any that were sick with various diseases brought them to him; and he laid his hands on every one of them and healed them. 4.41 And demons also came out of many, crying, "You are the Son of God!" But he rebuked them, and would not allow them to speak, because they knew that he was the Christ.
1.40 And a leper came to him beseeching him, and kneeling said to him, "If you will, you can make me clean." 1.41 Moved with pity, he stretched out his hand and touched him, and said to him, "I will; be clean."	5.12 While he was in one of the cities, there came a man full of leprosy; and when he saw Jesus, he fell on his face and besought him, "Lord, if you will, you can make me clean." 5.13 And he stretched out his hand, and touched him, saying, "I will; be clean." And immediately the leprosy left him.	8.2 and behold, a leper came to him and knelt before him, saying, "Lord, if you will, you can make me clean." 8.3 And he stretched out his hand and touched him, saying, "I will; be clean." And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.
2.14 And as he passed on, he saw Levi the son of Alphaeus sitting at the tax office, and he said to him, "Follow me." And he rose and followed him.	5.27 After this he went out, and saw a tax collector, named Levi, sitting at the tax office; and he said to him, "Follow me."	9.9 As Jesus passed on from there, he saw a man called Matthew sitting at the tax office; and he said to him, "Follow me." And he rose and followed him
2.21 No one sews a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment; if he does, the patch tears away from it, the new from the old, and a worse tear is made. 2.22 And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; if he does, the wine will burst the skins, and the wine is lost, and so are the skins; but new wine is for fresh skins."	5.36 He told them a parable also: "No one tears a piece from a new garment and puts it upon an old garment; if he does, he will tear the new, and the piece from the new will not match the old. 5.37 And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; if he does, the new wine will burst the skins and it will be spilled, and the skins will be destroyed. 5.38 But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins."	9.16 "And no one puts a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment, for the patch tears away from the garment, and a worse tear is made. 9.17 Neither is new wine put into old wineskins; if it is, the skins burst, and the wine is spilled, and the skins are destroyed; but new wine is put into fresh wineskins, and so both are preserved."	47 Jesus said, "It is impossible for a man to mount two horses or to stretch two bows. And it is impossible for a servant to serve two masters; otherwise he will honor the one and treat the other contemptuously. No man drinks old wine and immediately desires to drink new wine. And new wine is not put into old wineskins, lest they burst; nor is old wine put into a new wineskin, lest it spoil it. An old patch is not sewn onto a new garment, because a tear would result."
2.23 One sabbath he was going through the grainfields; and as they made their way his disciples began to pluck heads of grain. 2.24 And the Pharisees said to him, "Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the sabbath?" 2.25 And he said to them, "Have you never read what David did, when he was in need and was hungry, he and those who were with him: 2.26 how he entered the house of God, when Abiathar was high priest, and ate the bread of the Presence, which it is not lawful for any but the priests to eat, and also gave it to those who were with him?"	6.1 On a sabbath, while he was going through the grainfields, his disciples plucked and ate some heads of grain, rubbing them in their hands. 6.2 But some of the Pharisees said, "Why are you doing what is not lawful to do on the sabbath?" 6.3 And Jesus answered, "Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him: 6.4 how he entered the house of God, and took and ate the bread of the Presence, which it is not lawful for any but the priests to eat, and also gave it to those with him?"	12.1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the sabbath; his disciples were hungry, and they began to pluck heads of grain and to eat 12.2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said to him, "Look, your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the sabbath." 12.3 He said to them, "Have you not read what David did, when he was hungry, and those who were with him: 12.4 how he entered the house of God and ate the bread of the Presence, which it was not lawful for him to eat nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests?"
2.27 And he said to them, "The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath; 2.28 so the Son of man is lord even of the sabbath."	6.5 And he said to them, "The Son of man is lord of the sabbath."	12.8 For the Son of man is lord of the sabbath."
	6.23 Rejoice in that day, and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven; for so their fathers did to the prophets.	5.12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so men persecuted the prophets who were before you.
	6.24 "But woe to you that are rich, for you have received your consolation. 6.25 Woe to you that are full now, for you shall hunger. Woe to you that laugh now, for you shall mourn and weep. 6.26 Woe to you, when all men speak well of you, for so their fathers did to the false prophets."
		5.17 ‡ "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them." ‡
	6.27. "But I say to you that hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 6.28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. 6.29 To him who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also; and from him who takes away your coat do not withhold even your shirt."	5.44 "But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, ... 5.39 But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; 5.40 and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well."
	6.30 "Give to every one who begs from you; and of him who takes away your goods do not ask them again."
	6.35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for he is kind to the ungrateful and the selfish.	5.45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; ‡ for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. ‡
	6.39 He also told them a parable: "Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? 6.40 A disciple is not above his teacher, but every one when he is fully taught will be like his teacher."	15.14 "Let them alone; they are blind guides. And if a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit." 10.24 "A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master; 10.25 it is enough for the disciple to be like his teacher, and the servant like his master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign those of his household."	34 Jesus said, "If a blind man leads a blind man, they will both fall into a pit."
	12.51 Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division.	10.34 "Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a ‡ sword. ‡	16 Jesus said, "Men think, perhaps, that it is peace which I have come to cast upon the world. They do not know that it is dissension which I have come to cast upon the earth: fire, sword, and war. For there will be five in a house: three will be against two, and two against three, the father against the son, and the son against the father. And they will stand solitary."
	12.53 "they will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against her mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law."	10.35 "For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law"	16 Jesus said, "Men think, perhaps, that it is peace which I have come to cast upon the world. They do not know that it is dissension which I have come to cast upon the earth: fire, sword, and war. For there will be five in a house: three will be against two, and two against three, the father against the son, and the son against the father. And they will stand solitary."
	7.19 And John, calling to him two of his disciples, sent them to the Lord, saying, "Are you he who is to come, or shall we look for another?"	11.3 and said to him, "Are you he who is to come, or shall we look for another?"
	7.22 And he answered them, "Go and tell John what you have seen and heard: the blind receive their sight, the lame walk, lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, the poor have good news preached to them."	11.4 And Jesus answered them, "Go and tell John what you hear and see: 11.5 the blind receive their sight and the lame walk, lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear, and the dead are raised up, and the poor have good news preached to them.
	7.23 "And blessed is he who takes no offense at me."	11.6 "And blessed is he who takes no offense at me."
	7.28 "I tell you, among those born of women none is greater than John; yet he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."	11.11 "Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has risen no one greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."	46 Jesus said, "Among those born of women, from Adam until John the Baptist, there is no one so superior to John the Baptist that his eyes should not be lowered (before him). Yet I have said whichever one of you comes to be a child will be acquainted with the Kingdom and will become superior to John."
	16.16 "The law and the prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and every one enters it violently."	11.12 "From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and men of violence take it by force."
	10.21 In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, "I thank thee, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to babes; yea, Father, for such was thy gracious will."	11.25 At that time Jesus declared, "I thank thee, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to babes; 11.26 yea, Father, for such was thy gracious will."
	10.22 "All things have been delivered to me by my Father; and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."	11.27 "All things have been delivered to me by my Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."
3.27 "But no one can enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man; then indeed he may plunder his house."	11.21 "When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are in peace; 11.22 but when one stronger than he assails him and overcomes him, he takes away his armor in which he trusted, and divides his spoil."	12.29 "Or how can one enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house."	35 Jesus said, "It is not possible for anyone to enter the house of a strong man and take it by force unless he binds his hands; then he will (be able to) ransack his house."
3.32 And a crowd was sitting about him; and they said to him, "Your mother and your brothers are outside, asking for you."	8.20 And he was told, "Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see you."	12.46 While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him	99 The disciples said to Him, "Your brothers and Your mother are standing outside." ...
3.34 And looking around on those who sat about him, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! 3.35 Whoever does the will of God is my brother, and sister, and mother."	8.21 But he said to them, "My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word of God and do it."	12.49 And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! 12.50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother, and sister, and mother."	99 ... He said to them, "Those here who do the will of My Father are My brothers and My mother. It is they who will enter the Kingdom of My Father."

[edited - cut early for this quote!]

From this outline, and given this arrangement, there would appear to be two large insertions into the material of Mark (or, on the view that Mark was later, two large excisions to form what became Mark). ...

If we turn this into a continuous text based the synoptic gospels, adding back some of the text from Matthew (parts of which are evidenced above), noting the large blocks:

The Gospel according to Mark Text:


Longer Gospel Text:


Gospel according to Mark Text:


That "Longer Gospel Text" is very interesting.

I'm going to put this incomplete post out there, so others can play with it, and I can return to complete my thoughts.

Remember also that if I read Papias correctly (or the fragment we have of Papias allegedly referencing "John") the contemporary world was entirely aware of the expansion of Mark and cheered it on (unless you were a Marcionite and the Marcionite gospel was Mark). Luke clearly is expanding material. Papias says in essence Matthew improved Mark by adding whatever you want to call Matthew's additions "Judaizing?" To me the Letter to Theodore really isn't saying anything new. It's just acknowledging something no one wanted to admit or which we as "sensible" modern people didn't want to admit (or our forefathers didn't want to admit, we're too busy looking at our phones to care about religion).

Let's suppose for a moment that Morton Smith's thesis about Secret Mark is true, that it provides a context for the various statements about "dying, being buried and resurrected" with Christ. This would provide a very good reason for the fabrication of a whole other "set" of expanded "Mark gospels" which make no reference to things which were seen as objectionable by Irenaeus i.e. Paul and his experiences becoming the focus of the new religion. You couldn't very well have Paul and Peter or Paul and the Jerusalem Church reconcile with regards to a gospel where Paul's experience with Jesus becomes the focal point of the gospel.

Michael Zeddies, 'An Origenian Background for the Letter to Theodore,' Harvard Theological Review, vol. 112, Issue 3, July 2019, pp.376-406

The Abstract in full:


via https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals ... 1FCB7044C7

Also: Michael, T. Zeddies, “Did Origen Write the Letter to Theodore?,” JECS 24 (2017) 55–87

The Letter to Theodore
("English translation of the Greek text is from Morton Smith’s book Clement of Alexandria and a Secret Gospel of Mark (Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1973), 448-52, but follows the corrections made in his commentary. Square brackets indicate revisions where I dispute the translation and consider the difference to be important. The longer gospel citations are my literal translations, intended to preserve the idiosyncrasies of their Markan phraseology.")