Leucius Charinus wrote:So where in your model does the history of "Divine Institute" (which could do no wrong) begin and end, and the "Church Organisation" (which repeatedly did every possible wrong) take over operations?
November 5th, 1955, the day Marty McFly arrived back in Hill Valley.
So, LC, have you stopped doing meth yet?
See I can play too.
I don't understand your perceived playfulness at this question.
Arnaldo Momigliano found it important enough to address.
"It is of course impossible to indicate the exact moment in which the history
of the Church began to be studied as the history of a human community instead
of a divine institution."
"If I had to produce my own candidate, I would go back to the first half of the
eighteenth century and name Pietro Giannone, who meditated deeply on the relation
between ecclesiastical and political history and about 1742 wrote in prison
a sketch of the history of ecclesiastical history which would be published only
in 1859 (Istoria del Pontificato di Gregorio Magno in Opere di Pietro
Giannone, ed. Bertelli-Ricuperati, Naples, 1971).
The assertion of blasphemy is at least as old as Eusebius in the 4th century and it must remain one of the key criteria by which people (particularly authors) were to be regarded as heretics. It is my opinion that unless we understand the history of blasphemy and heresy in the Christian religion (as operated by the church organisation) then we wont be able to fully reconstruct a history of Christian origins.
About my comments concerning the "Divine Institute"
Traditionally Jesus is the head of the "Divine Institute" and it operated through the Apostolic Age in which members of that "Divine Instutute" wrote books. Paul has displaced the Gospel authors as the first to write. So Paul is the earliest of the Institute to write. At some stage the authorship in the Apostolic Age ceased and the Christians moved through the terrible persection until they were liberated by Constantine.
My point is that if you believe in either an historical Jesus or an historical Paul (and not necessarily historical Mat/Mar/Luk/John) then you believe in a "Divine Institute". Do you (or anyone else) have a problem with this?
LC
A "cobbler of fables" [Augustine]; "Leucius is the disciple of the devil" [Decretum Gelasianum]; and his books "should be utterly swept away and burned" [Pope Leo I]; they are the "source and mother of all heresy" [Photius]
Leucius Charinus wrote:So where in your model does the history of "Divine Institute" (which could do no wrong) begin and end, and the "Church Organisation" (which repeatedly did every possible wrong) take over operations?
November 5th, 1955, the day Marty McFly arrived back in Hill Valley.
So, LC, have you stopped doing meth yet?
See I can play too.
I don't understand your perceived playfulness at this question.
Loaded question ... I did not expect that I would have to spell that out.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
The discussion of heresy and blasphemy and the historical progress of their ERADICATION in a free society is a study of the history of scepticism and critical thinking on the subject matter of Christian origins as distinct from the servile acceptance of "Church Dogma".
As is widely know,’ Epstein writes, many American colonists came to America to flee religious persecution in Europe.
What is perhaps less well known is the extent to which these same colonists made religion an integral part of public life in America.[14]
In his article, Epstein goes on to illustrate the oppressive religious laws that existed that existed in the US during its infancy.
This included, in many US jurisdictions, the death penalty for blasphemy.[15]
[14] Steven B. Epstein, ‘Rethinking the Constitutionality of Ceremonial Deism’ (1996) 96 Columbia Law Review 2099. Reprinted in Cornelia Koch (ed), Comparative Law Course Reader (2006), Appendix B/3a.
Blasphemy laws are a heritage from a wicked and deplorable past. In their essence they belong to a period when laws were far more ferocious than they are today, and when it was held the duty of the State to enforce and openly coerce opinion. They are also part of the general belief that the right discharge of the duties of citizenship depends, in some more or less obscure way, on the holding of right religious beliefs. In such circumstances, unbelief, heresy and blasphemy partake of the nature of treason. The heretic is one who is a threat to the welfare of the tribe or nation, and, in the interests of the whole group, he must be suppressed … The blasphemy laws are aimed at opinion and opinion alone. It is to the spirit of persecution they owe their existence; it is the spirit of intolerance and persecution they always serve.
LC
A "cobbler of fables" [Augustine]; "Leucius is the disciple of the devil" [Decretum Gelasianum]; and his books "should be utterly swept away and burned" [Pope Leo I]; they are the "source and mother of all heresy" [Photius]
Peter Kirby wrote:
part of why I never cared to poke Islam too much is that I suspect I might actually be a victim of violence as a result
.
I have never seen such a barbaric insane and embarrassing theology with more holes then a spaghetti strainer. The level of fanaticism and fundamentalism is embarrassing humanity.
Its not hard to be caught on their radar of hatred telling the truth here. One cannot tell real history to any of them due to the required literalism by all.
They follow a pedophile plagiarist who could only spread his message with blood and violence. The writings so primitive, some make very little sense on their best day.
Their people the most primitive on the planet, with the highest illiteracy rates out of any religious group. Their barbaric treatment of women is appalling.
Freedom to them means the freedom to have forced beliefs and traditions, and many do not have the intellect allah gave to a crowbar, murdering each other as their number one cause of death.
Talking anything but their pseudo history is like talking to a wall, only if you talked to wall it would be more productive because you could convince yourself to stop at some point, wont happen talking to a muslim on reality.
Add to this due to their poor intellect and fanaticism, they breed the highest amount of terrorist on the planet.
Should I tell you how I really feel?
Islam refuted in a few sentences.
Why is there not one credible historian in the world that uses the Koran for any aspect of Israelite or Jesus history? Because people in reality don't use plagiarized mythology to try and recreate history.
Not sure where that came from or what caused it, but it does contain some impressive rhetoric! My understanding is that sort of vent doesn't actually help and I would instead commend this approach
A "cobbler of fables" [Augustine]; "Leucius is the disciple of the devil" [Decretum Gelasianum]; and his books "should be utterly swept away and burned" [Pope Leo I]; they are the "source and mother of all heresy" [Photius]
Peter Kirby wrote:November 5th, 1955, the day Marty McFly arrived back in Hill Valley.
So, LC, have you stopped doing meth yet?
See I can play too.
I don't understand your perceived playfulness at this question.
Loaded question ... I did not expect that I would have to spell that out.
So it appears to me that the hypothetical existence of a "Divine Institute" (even it includes "St Paul") for you is a loaded question.
How would you describe the "Apostolic Age"?
LC
A "cobbler of fables" [Augustine]; "Leucius is the disciple of the devil" [Decretum Gelasianum]; and his books "should be utterly swept away and burned" [Pope Leo I]; they are the "source and mother of all heresy" [Photius]
