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Re: Carrier - Goodacre conversation on the historicity of Jesus
Posted: Mon May 06, 2024 8:01 am
by Giuseppe
JarekS wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2024 9:58 pm. It was created in the 19th century by William Benjamin Smith, Arthur Drews and Frederick Engels.
I have a great respect for W. B. Smith and Arthur Drews, and less for Engels and Bruno Bauer. Frankly the quality of the former can't be compared with the latter.
Re: Carrier - Goodacre conversation on the historicity of Jesus
Posted: Mon May 06, 2024 8:08 am
by RandyHelzerman
JarekS wrote: ↑Mon May 06, 2024 2:57 am
Giuseppe wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2024 11:03 pm
JarekS wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2024 9:58 pm
The greatest enemies are the internal enemies in your own camp.
If it's such a terrible truth, why do you describe Marcion with the voice of his bitter enemies?
The voice of his bitter enemies is the only voice Marcion has left:-)
The external enemy is the reason for our ennoblement and glory. The enemy within is the cause of our shame.
I don't think it's helpful to think of "our camp vs. their camp" or "internal vs external" enemies. I can disagree with somebody and not be their enemy. Carrier can't make me feel ashamed. And he's too small potatoes to get any glory out of fighting him anyways.
Re: Carrier - Goodacre conversation on the historicity of Jesus
Posted: Mon May 06, 2024 9:18 am
by Giuseppe
Sometimes it happens to me fear for the life of Carrier when I remember that in America there is free circulation of firearms.
Re: Carrier - Goodacre conversation on the historicity of Jesus
Posted: Mon May 06, 2024 9:35 am
by RandyHelzerman
Giuseppe wrote: ↑Mon May 06, 2024 9:18 am
Sometimes it happens to me fear for the life of Carrier when I remember that in America there is free circulation of firearms.
Given that we experience, on average, one school shooting per day, it's no idle worry. But not because somebody might look at a book entitled, "Jesus from Outer Space" and is seized with a fit of pique. Its more just an increased background danger, like breathing second hand smoke or something.
Re: Carrier - Goodacre conversation on the historicity of Jesus
Posted: Mon May 06, 2024 9:42 am
by JarekS
Larry Hurtado's list includes about 270 oldest manuscripts, of which only one is attributed to *Ev (P69) or Luke. Here we have an inscription from the oldest church from 318CE confirming the existence of a significant Christian organization hated by the Orthodox, exercising freedom of religion from 313CE. So in the first two centuries of Christianity, when letters, gospels and revelations were mass-produced, the Marcionites stubbornly stuck to the short *Ev and the truncated Pauline Corpus.
This is possible, but at the same time the most unlikely scenario. Marcion's church used and co-created Christian content resources. The accusations of Tertullian and others have the same value as Stalin's accusation of Trotsky of spying for Great Britain.
Marcion was hated because he sold exactly the same things as the Orthodox. Otherwise, Ireneusz's students would not have changed the organization. They went where there was better organization and prospects.
The competition was of a market nature - who would build the larger structure. It was a competition before the merger, which had to take place under the auspices of the Empire.
Marcion financed the Roman commune, provided letters and writings, and initiated the development of literature after promoting the historical Jesus.
He lost some competition among ambitious leaders who had no achievements but had aspirations.
Re: Carrier - Goodacre conversation on the historicity of Jesus
Posted: Mon May 06, 2024 9:57 am
by JarekS
DCHindleyI will be happy to read it, especially since I have just read Robert Wipper's Rome and Early Christianity. The socio-economic analyzes were very accurate, but they tried too hard to prove the pre-Christian cult of Jesus. If they focused more on creating content, inventing traditions, and building structures, they would achieve more. It's even funny because the communists were masters of invented tradition and creating historical policy.
Re: Carrier - Goodacre conversation on the historicity of Jesus
Posted: Mon May 06, 2024 10:58 am
by Giuseppe
JarekS wrote: ↑Mon May 06, 2024 9:57 am
DCHindleyI will be happy to read it, especially since I have just read Robert Wipper's Rome and Early Christianity.
Is there some possibility that this Wipper's book can be translated in English?
Re: Carrier - Goodacre conversation on the historicity of Jesus
Posted: Mon May 06, 2024 11:10 am
by JarekS
Unfortunately not
Re: Carrier - Goodacre conversation on the historicity of Jesus
Posted: Mon May 06, 2024 8:51 pm
by JarekS
RandyHelzerman wrote: ↑Mon May 06, 2024 8:08 am
JarekS wrote: ↑Mon May 06, 2024 2:57 am
Giuseppe wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2024 11:03 pm
JarekS wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2024 9:58 pm
The greatest enemies are the internal enemies in your own camp.
If it's such a terrible truth, why do you describe Marcion with the voice of his bitter enemies?
The voice of his bitter enemies is the only voice Marcion has left:-)
From this voice we can distill just a few useful pieces of information:
1. Marcion was an entrepreneur in the maritime trade, which gave him a huge logistical advantage in building a network of congregations
2. Marcion was the leader of his organization and held office in Rome from where he ran both businesses - commercial and religious
3. Marcion financed the activities of the Roman commune of which he was a member and donated part of his book collection to the commune
4. Marcion remained independent because there was no better leader whose advantage he could recognize
5. Marcion's organization offered better prospects and weaker leaders lost people to it - the example of Ireaneus.
6. Marcion was a threat to a whole lot of people because he operated in many markets, unlike others who operated locally.
These are the only real reasons why a competitor offering the exact same Jesus was hated.