Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

Revelation 13:8: "And all the inhabitants of the earth shall worship him [sc. the Beast], (everyone) whose name has not been written in the book of life of the lamb slain from (ἀπὸ) the foundation of the world."

I always assumed this means that Jesus' crucifixion was foreordained, before creation.

But is there reason to think the passage means that the lamb actually was slain - by demons? - before the physical world was set up, or at the moment of its setting up - as though slain, not in human history, but in a realm above that of humans?

My father had a third take, that the verse means that creation begins with an act of destruction (cf. Picasso), and that the very divine essence was divided in order for the world to be made. I don't ask for comments on this third view.

ficino wrote: I always assumed this means that Jesus' crucifixion was foreordained, before creation.

.

kind of hard to come to that conclusion when crucifixion or cross isn't even mentioned in that book.

It might be a reference to the activity of the heavenly high priest, the doppelganger of the earthly equivalent in Jerusalem indicating the document was written when lambs were still being slaughtered below.

https://books.google.com/books?id=MOq3T ... ry&f=false

ficino wrote:Revelation 13:8: "And all the inhabitants of the earth shall worship him [sc. the Beast], (everyone) whose name has not been written in the book of life of the lamb slain from (ἀπὸ) the foundation of the world."

I always assumed this means that Jesus' crucifixion was foreordained, before creation.

But is there reason to think the passage means that the lamb actually was slain - by demons? - before the physical world was set up, or at the moment of its setting up - as though slain, not in human history, but in a realm above that of humans?

My father had a third take, that the verse means that creation begins with an act of destruction (cf. Picasso), and that the very divine essence was divided in order for the world to be made. I don't ask for comments on this third view.

Yes, I do believe it is talking about a pre-Gospel view that the sacrifice took place in non-real time, mythical time. This is the belief system reflected in Paul's writings (and I would say in the Ascension of Isaiah, Chapter 9). In Paul, "the rulers of this age" are the demons under the Beast.

cienfuegos wrote:

ficino wrote:Revelation 13:8: "And all the inhabitants of the earth shall worship him [sc. the Beast], (everyone) whose name has not been written in the book of life of the lamb slain from (ἀπὸ) the foundation of the world."

I always assumed this means that Jesus' crucifixion was foreordained, before creation.

But is there reason to think the passage means that the lamb actually was slain - by demons? - before the physical world was set up, or at the moment of its setting up - as though slain, not in human history, but in a realm above that of humans?

My father had a third take, that the verse means that creation begins with an act of destruction (cf. Picasso), and that the very divine essence was divided in order for the world to be made. I don't ask for comments on this third view.

Yes, I do believe it is talking about a pre-Gospel view that the sacrifice took place in non-real time, mythical time. This is the belief system reflected in Paul's writings (and I would say in the Ascension of Isaiah, Chapter 9). In Paul, "the rulers of this age" are the demons under the Beast.

I would certainly like to add Rev 13:8 to the side of the scale favoring a sacrifice of Jesus in mythical time.

Bible translators are somewhat evenly split between ----

“… whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.” (or such similar in ESV, NASB, NET, ASV, etc.)

And

“… whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” (or such similar in NIV, KJV, ISV, ERV, etc,)

The second version here seems the most natural from the extant Greek. However, I wonder if Rev 17:8 would favor the first version of Rev 13:8 instead? (i.e. “… written from the foundation of the world in the book of life …”)

Here’s Rev 17:8 ----

“…and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.”

I suppose it’s possible that the author of Revelation intended to write that both the names written in the book of life AND the slaying of the lamb took place from the foundation of the world???

Are there significant manuscript variants for these verses? Relatively early citations?

robert j wrote:

cienfuegos wrote:

ficino wrote:Revelation 13:8: "And all the inhabitants of the earth shall worship him [sc. the Beast], (everyone) whose name has not been written in the book of life of the lamb slain from (ἀπὸ) the foundation of the world."

I always assumed this means that Jesus' crucifixion was foreordained, before creation.

But is there reason to think the passage means that the lamb actually was slain - by demons? - before the physical world was set up, or at the moment of its setting up - as though slain, not in human history, but in a realm above that of humans?

My father had a third take, that the verse means that creation begins with an act of destruction (cf. Picasso), and that the very divine essence was divided in order for the world to be made. I don't ask for comments on this third view.

Yes, I do believe it is talking about a pre-Gospel view that the sacrifice took place in non-real time, mythical time. This is the belief system reflected in Paul's writings (and I would say in the Ascension of Isaiah, Chapter 9). In Paul, "the rulers of this age" are the demons under the Beast.

I would certainly like to add Rev 13:8 to the side of the scale favoring a sacrifice of Jesus in mythical time.

Bible translators are somewhat evenly split between ----

“… whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.” (or such similar in ESV, NASB, NET, ASV, etc.)

And

“… whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” (or such similar in NIV, KJV, ISV, ERV, etc,)

The second version here seems the most natural from the extant Greek. However, I wonder if Rev 17:8 would favor the first version of Rev 13:8 instead? (i.e. “… written from the foundation of the world in the book of life …”)

Here’s Rev 17:8 ----

“…and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.”

I suppose it’s possible that the author of Revelation intended to write that both the names written in the book of life AND the slaying of the lamb took place from the foundation of the world???

Are there significant manuscript variants for these verses? Relatively early citations?

No, tentatively, on the basis of 17:8, I'm going to withdraw my support for that and think more n the issue of Revelation.

perseusomega9 wrote:

ficino wrote: I always assumed this means that Jesus' crucifixion was foreordained, before creation.

.

kind of hard to come to that conclusion when crucifixion or cross isn't even mentioned in that book.

True, but then, to what do you think the "slain" predicate refers, perseus? Do you take this as a reference to Jesus' ministry or to something else?

ficino wrote:... but then, to what do you think the "slain" predicate refers, perseus? Do you take this as a reference to Jesus' ministry or to something else?

It refers to the Mishmarot Group "Immer" <=> "Immar" <=> "Lamb" => as in "Lamb of God". The word pun is lost in the Greek but apparent in Hebrew. Immer is the 16th and last Group of the House of Eleazar, which was part of an Atrocity which found 3000 people murdered at the Temple. Passover is cancelled and the Nation is Unclean. BTW, Jannaeus is "The King".

I know, I know, I've just got to remind people from time to time. Don't leave the party when the soldiers close the gates and take out the swords...

Matthew 15: 10 - 13 (RSV):

[10] And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast; and the door was shut.
[11] Afterward the other maidens came also, saying, `Lord, lord, open to us.'
[12] But he replied, `Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.'
[13] Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.

There! There it is!

CW

Couchoud suggested the possibility that the author of 1 Peter 1:20 ('foreknown' from the foundation of the world) was opposing the view expressed in Revelation 13:8 ('slain from the foundation...').

Was it not a typical custom to offer a sacrifice at the laying of the foundations of any new major building project -- especially in legend with the building of a city?

The Lamb beat Jesus to the Cross by many centuries !!!

In the archaeological record whether nailed, or tied, Jesus was not traditionally depicted on a cross. The earliest imagery of Jesus seems to have been associated with various NT scenes and events (e.g. Jesus raises Lazarus with a wand) but not the crucifixion scene or event. According to the following reference the figure of Jesus on a cross (i.e. a crucifix) does not enter the archaeological record until the 6th century CE. Before that the "church organisation" corporate imagery seems to have been a lamb on a cross. (This is where Helena was useful). It also cites a Council of Trullo in 692 CE in which was decreed ...

• "We order that, instead of the lamb, our Lord Jesus Christ shall be shown hereafter in his human form in the images ....... blah blah blah"

The Cross in Ritual, Architecture and Art By Geo. S. Tyack
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=exQ ... 22&f=false




LC