Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

davidmartin wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2024 4:54 am
thus to say the Simonians were involved in the composition of the original epistles becomes:
a corrupted form of the Simonians were involved in the composition
which becomes:
a corruption of something original created the epistles

Giuseppe wrote: ↑Fri Oct 14, 2022 6:06 am Van Manen is a perfect precursor of Matthias Klinghardt when the former described the Earliest Gospel in the following terms:

As for their origin, the Gospels, on close comparison, point us back to (i.) an «oldest» written gospel (to euaggelion) which unfortunately does not exist for us except in so far as we can recover any traces of it preserved in later recensions. Perhaps it began somewhat as follows: «In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberias Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea... in the high-priesthood of Annas and Caiphas, ... there came down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee; cp Luke 3:1-2; 4:31), Jesus Christ the Son of God»; and then proceeded to sketch, somewhat in the following order, his appearance at Capernaum, his casting out of devils, the proclamation of the kingdom of God, the transfiguration, the final journey to Jerusalem, his passion, death and resurrection. Nothing was said as yet of his origin, birth, early life, meeting with John, baptism in the Jordan, temptation in the wilderness, nor much of consequence regarding his mission as a religious teacher and preacher in Galilee.

This work, presumably written in Greek, may be conjectured to have arisen in the post-apostolic age in circles which sought to combine their more developed Christology (a free speculation of what would then have been called the «left wing») with (ii.) the still older apostolic tradition - not yet reduced to writing - partly historical, partly not, regarding Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah who had once appeared and whose return was to be expected. As over against the friends of this older tradition, who were able to point to it, those whom we have described (i.) as belonging to the left wing felt the need of a clear setting forth of what had been done and suffered by the Son of God in his manifestation in the world.

(A Wave of Hypercriticism, The English Writings of W.C. van Manen, edited by Robert M. Price, p. 55-56, my bold)

• Mark, and not *Ev, is the first gospel;

• all the pauline epistles have to be placed in the second century.

Giuseppe wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2024 5:16 am it seems that, insofar you use these words, you are unaware of the best cases against the authenticity of all the pauline epistles.

I mean: the radical critics, Detering, Price.

I don't mean Bruno Bauer, even if he is the first of the radical critics.


I am not saying that they are right. I am saying that insofar you want to talk about falsified epistles in an academic way, you are obliged to conclude that all the Pauline letters ‘ortas esse in Cerdonis vel Marcionitarum scholis’, that means: they had been written in Marcionite/Kerdo’s school and firstly collected by ‘schoolmaster’ Marcion.

Hence I raise again the question: did the Simonians use Mark or *Ev ?

davidmartin wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2024 6:26 am

Giuseppe wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2024 5:16 am it seems that, insofar you use these words, you are unaware of the best cases against the authenticity of all the pauline epistles.

I mean: the radical critics, Detering, Price.

I don't mean Bruno Bauer, even if he is the first of the radical critics.


I am not saying that they are right. I am saying that insofar you want to talk about falsified epistles in an academic way, you are obliged to conclude that all the Pauline letters ‘ortas esse in Cerdonis vel Marcionitarum scholis’, that means: they had been written in Marcionite/Kerdo’s school and firstly collected by ‘schoolmaster’ Marcion.

Hence I raise again the question: did the Simonians use Mark or *Ev ?

there are no Simonians, they are just a made-up name for a former group. it's a horseshit name
otherwise, where are the Simonians in the historical record?

RParvus wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2024 8:08 am My vote for authorship of proto-Mark would go to Basilides. But for the interpolation of Paul’s letters (with Saturnilian materials) and the authorship of proto-Luke I would vote for Cerdo.