Van Manen about *Ev being a diplomatic Gospel

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Giuseppe
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Re: Van Manen about *Ev being a diplomatic Gospel

Post by Giuseppe »

Van Manen is even more explicit about *Ev being connected with the fabricators of the epistles, as exposed now by Whittaker:

A Written Gospel.
To the indications of a later time belongs the use, which we may conjecture, of a written Gospel much like the Synoptics and most like Luke, but not to be identified with any of the three in the form known to us. The passage where reference is made to a command of the Lord regarding the indissolubility of marriage (γυναῖκα ἀπὸ ἀνδρὸς μὴ χωρισθῆναι, iii. 10) corresponds too closely with Matt. xix. 8-9 and Mark x. 2-12 (cf. Luke xvi. 18) to have had its source in an independent oral tradition. The mention of eating and drinking (φαγεῖν κὰι πιεῖν) in ix. 4 is only explicable if we see there an allusion to what is said in Luke x. 7 (ἐν αὐτῇ δὲ τῇ οἰκίᾳ μένετε, ἔσθοντες καὶ πίνοντες τὰ παρ’ αὐτῶν· ἄξιος γὰρ ὁ ἐργάτης τοῦ μισθοῦ αὐτοῦ). The ordinance of the Lord that the preachers of the Gospel should live of the Gospel, cited in ix. 14, recalls, besides the foregoing passage of Luke, Matt. x. 9-10, Mark vi. 8-9, Luke ix. 8. This is not to be explained, however, by dependence of the author of the Epistle on our third Gospel in its present form. Rather the coincidence between 1 Cor. x. 27 (πᾶν τὸ παρατιθέμενον ὑμῖν ἐσθίετε) and Luke x. 8 (ἐσθίετε τὰ παρατιθέμενα ὑμῖν), which can scarcely be accidental, betrays acquaintance with the Epistle on the part of the author of the Gospel. For, after what has been said in Luke x. 7, the admonition of verse 8 has no sense without tacit reference to the words added in the Epistle (μηδὲν ἀνακρίνοντες διὰ τὴν συνείδησιν, x. 27). The faith that can remove mountains (xiii. 2) makes us think involuntarily of Matt. xvii. 20, xxi. 21, Luke xvii. 6; the last trumpet (xv. 52) of Matt. xxiv. 81. The passages on the institution of the Lord’s supper and on the tradition regarding the resurrection support the same general view. The most probable conclusion is that ‘‘Paul” and ‘‘Luke” drew from the same written Gospel. [1]

(Thomas Whittaker, The Origins of Christianity: With an Outline of Van Manen's Analysis of the Pauline Literature, my bold, p. 186-187)

Note (1) reads:

Thus “ Paul’’ has allusions to this Gospel, which may have been a forerunner of the Canonical Luke; while ‘‘ Luke,’’ the final redactor of the third Gospel, was slightly influenced by contact with the emergent Pauline literature.

(my bold)
davidmartin
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Re: Van Manen about *Ev being a diplomatic Gospel

Post by davidmartin »

but. it is mlinssen who flags up that *Ev is not party to the terminology of the epistles, it isn't a great fit and a dispassionate view of the epistles makes that clear - they have no interest in what the gospels are interested in (the historical Jesus)

the epistles are reworking the mysterious elements of *Ev and claiming to elucidate their meaning. *Ev serves to support this interpretation while suggesting a pre-existing formula that the epistles are a development of. which is where Thomas comes into it - what Thomas does is what the epistles do except the epistles do it in their own way and Thomas does it another way. as observers we simply are privy to the ways in which *Ev was understood
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Giuseppe
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Re: Van Manen about *Ev being a diplomatic Gospel

Post by Giuseppe »

My view at the present:

*Ev preceded the marcionite school who fabricated the epistles and collected and published them with *Ev, then the Judaizers wrote Mark, Matthew and Luke-Acts.
  • Therefore *Ev euhemerized Jesus under the mythicist paradigm, even before the invention of Paul.
  • Or, under the historicist paradigm: *Ev would be the only "evidence" of a historical Jesus.
davidmartin
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Re: Van Manen about *Ev being a diplomatic Gospel

Post by davidmartin »

Giuseppe wrote: Fri May 24, 2024 5:06 am My view at the present:

*Ev preceded the marcionite school who fabricated the epistles and collected and published them with *Ev, then the Judaizers wrote Mark, Matthew and Luke-Acts.
  • Therefore *Ev euhemerized Jesus under the mythicist paradigm, even before the invention of Paul.
  • Or, under the historicist paradigm: *Ev would be the only "evidence" of a historical Jesus.
yeah, but *Ev would not be transmitting the historical Jesus teaching accurately by definition - unless it happened to line up with the writings it would later be incorporated with (the epistles) - which is unlikely, or impossible. that's why the appeal to Thomas is of value, to point to the actual teaching of the historical person that was later merely re-interpreted to support another teaching. it boils down to having an inkling what this might have been in front of us raising the value and significance of the logia far above that of the epistles. that is the whole point of mlinssen or anyone who just see's in the parables a self-contained set of teachings that existed prior
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