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Van Manen about *Ev being a diplomatic Gospel

Posted: Sun May 19, 2024 8:04 am
by Giuseppe
The apparent contradiction of *Ev sounding too much Judaizing for their presumed authors Cerdo and Marcion (i..e the same fabricators of the Pauline epistles where, in their first version, the influence of the anti-demiurgism is at contrary too much evident) is resolved by Van Manen by postulating diplomatic reasons behind the concession to Judaism in a gospel (*Ev) written by anti-demiurgists:


As for their origin, the Gospels, on close comparison, point us back to (i.) an «oldest» written gospel (to euaggelion) which unfortunately does not exist for us except in so far as we can recover any traces of it preserved in later recensions. Perhaps it began somewhat as follows: «In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberias Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea... in the high-priesthood of Annas and Caiphas, ... there came down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee; cp Luke 3:1-2; 4:31), Jesus Christ the Son of God»; and then proceeded to sketch, somewhat in the following order, his appearance at Capernaum, his casting out of devils, the proclamation of the kingdom of God, the transfiguration, the final journey to Jerusalem, his passion, death and resurrection. Nothing was said as yet of his origin, birth, early life, meeting with John, baptism in the Jordan, temptation in the wilderness, nor much of consequence regarding his mission as a religious teacher and preacher in Galilee.

This work, presumably written in Greek, may be conjectured to have arisen in the post-apostolic age in circles which sought to combine their more developed Christology (a free speculation of what would then have been called the «left wing») with (ii.) the still older apostolic tradition — not yet reduced to writing — partly historical, partly not, regarding Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah who had once appeared and whose return was to be expected. As over against the friends of this older tradition, who were able to point to it, those whom we have described (i.) as belonging to the left wing felt the need of a clear setting forth of what had been done and suffered by the Son of God in his manifestation in the world.

(A Wave of Hypercriticism, The English Writings of W.C. van Manen, edited by Robert M. Price, p. 55-56, my bold)

Hence, the presence of judaizing bits sown here and there in *Ev is not evidence against the Cerdonite/Marcionite paternity of *Ev. At contrary, it is evidence of their need "to combine their more developed Christology ... with ... the still older apostolic tradition".

Van Manen meant that 'still older apostolic tradition' as a tradition about 'Jesus of Nazareth', but it was more probably the tradition about various messianists of the late 1° century CE. The recent (end first century) hearsay about these messianists appeared to Cerdo and Marcion as "evidence" that some earthly memories about their own [Cerdonite/Marcionite] Jesus were indeed left to their Judaizing enemies, hence they felt the need to come to a kind of compromise:
  • we accept the "weight" of that tradition
  • yet in reward we explain it as the Judaizers misunderstanding the descent of the Jesus Son of Father.
And *Ev was written.

Re: Van Manen about *Ev being a diplomatic Gospel

Posted: Sun May 19, 2024 8:15 am
by Giuseppe
Obviously *Ev 17 (and Mark 13) is good evidence of Judaizers interpreting the news about various messianists (of the late first century) as the news about Jesus himself.

Hence the need of a reaction against a such confusion and in the same time a concession to it (in the form of Judaizing bits sown in *Ev).

Re: Van Manen about *Ev being a diplomatic Gospel

Posted: Mon May 20, 2024 7:25 am
by andrewcriddle
It would be simpler IMO to say that Marcion's Gospel contains 'judaizing' elements because it is based on an earlier written Gospel whose author did not share Marcion's preoccupations.

Andrew Criddle

Re: Van Manen about *Ev being a diplomatic Gospel

Posted: Mon May 20, 2024 9:11 am
by Giuseppe
A classical example of 'judaizing bit' in *Ev is John the Baptist.

A previous gospel couldn't exist before *Ev since traces of the "Marcion's preoccupations" about John the Baptist survive in Mark and Matthew.


John's disciples (= the enemies of Marcion) and Jesus' disciples (= the Marcionites) are set off against one another in various passages, e.g. in Mark 2:18:

Now John’s disciples and the Pharisees were fasting. Some people came and asked Jesus, “How is it that John’s disciples and the disciples of the Pharisees are fasting, but yours are not?”

...and in Matthew 11:18:

For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ 19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’ But wisdom is proved right by her deeds.”

We are told that the John's disciples (Judaizers) fast, but the Jesus's disciples (Marcionites) do not: and this practice by the Judaizers is confirmed by Matthew 6:16 where the right method of fasting is laid down for them:

When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show others they are fasting.

Jesus is a winebibber; John drinks no wine, the sacramental use of wine coming certainly from the Marcionites, in the related passage in the 'pauline' epistle found in the Apostolikon as reconstructed by the prof Vinzent (even if Stuart denies their presence in Marcion):

The lord, taking the cup, blessing he gave to the disciples saying,“This is in my blood

and taking the bread,

blessing saying,“This is of me the body”.


Hence the following accusation in Mark 2:16 is directed against the Marcionite Jesus founder of the earliest (even if lost) form of Eucharist:

When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the sinners and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: “Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?”


Re: Van Manen about *Ev being a diplomatic Gospel

Posted: Tue May 21, 2024 12:29 pm
by Giuseppe
I have read this review of the Van Manen's view: https://www.jstor.org/stable/23660983

It seems that according to Van Manen both Mark and *Ev (and a lot of other gospels) are all based on the lost first gospel where the two only sure features are:
  • 1) the descent of Jesus from above in Capernaum in the incipit.
  • 2) a compromise between high christology of the authors and the low christology of the "oral tradition" about the historical Jesus. Such compromise supported the former more than the latter.
Hence the Van Manen's view resembles the Klinghardt's view insofar the latter says that Marcion merely used *Ev while Van Manen says that the marcionite Evangelion was a more liberal version of the "primitive gospel".

Obviously for Van Manen this primitive gospel preceded even the "Paul"'s letters. In modern terms, it would be better called: proto-*Ev.

My custom has been always to think in terms of epistles preceding the first gospel, but now I see that well two colosses (Bruno Bauer and Van Manen) argued for a primitive gospel preceding all the epistles. It can't be Mark since Mark knows Paul (docet Dykstra).

Re: Van Manen about *Ev being a diplomatic Gospel

Posted: Tue May 21, 2024 10:00 pm
by maryhelena
Giuseppe wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 12:29 pm I have read this review of the Van Manen's view: https://www.jstor.org/stable/23660983

It seems that according to Van Manen both Mark and *Ev (and a lot of other gospels) are all based on the lost first gospel where the two only sure features are:
  • 1) the descent of Jesus from above in Capernaum in the incipit.
  • 2) a compromise between high christology of the authors and the low christology of the "oral tradition" about the historical Jesus. Such compromise supported the former more than the latter.
Hence the Van Manen's view resembles the Klinghardt's view insofar the latter says that Marcion merely used *Ev while Van Manen says that the marcionite Evangelion was a more liberal version of the "primitive gospel".

Obviously for Van Manen this primitive gospel preceded even the "Paul"'s letters. In modern terms, it would be better called: proto-*Ev.

My custom has been always to think in terms of epistles preceding the first gospel, but now I see that well two colosses (Bruno Bauer and Van Manen) argued for a primitive gospel preceding all the epistles. It can't be Mark since Mark knows Paul (docet Dykstra).
A primitive gospel preceding even Paul's letters ?

I never did understand the Jesus from outer-space Carrier theory. Imagination is all well and good but it does not pull the heartstrings like a story reflecting a lived reality. Actual or literary. It's the Jesus gospel story that has 'sold' in it's millions of copies. A story physically enacted every Christmas and Easter - it's cross adornes the neck of millions. Translate all that into an outer-space scenario - and bobs your uncle - you have ripped apart the hearts of the faithful.

Which simply suggests that the NT reflects two stories - a philosophical (theological) story plus an interpretation, a finding meaning in, the lived experience of the gospel writers. However, like love and marriage - one can't have one without the other....(granted that such sentiment is out of fashion these days...)

Re: Van Manen about *Ev being a diplomatic Gospel

Posted: Wed May 22, 2024 7:56 am
by Giuseppe
Further evidence that Van Manen thought that the primitive gospel was more similar to *Ev than other known gospels:

In our Epistle to the Romans there are traces of acquaintance with a written Gospel. The phrase in ii. 16 (κατὰ τὸ εὐαγγέλιόν μου, cf. i. 9, xvi. 25) is most intelligible as referring to a book, and was so understood by Origen, Eusebius, and Jerome. From expressions not identical with, but recalling those of our canonical Gospels, if may be inferred that occa- sionally something was taken over from the Gospel spoken of. The following are possibly examples of this procedure: ὁδηγὸν εἶναι τυφλῶν (ii. 19), of. Matt. xv. 14, Luke vi. 39; φῶς τῶν ἐν σκότει (ii. 19), cf. Matt. v. 14, Luke xi. 35; ὁ κρίνων (11. 1), cf. Matt. vii. 1, Luke vi. 87. More especially there may be cited: εὐλογεῖτε τοὺς διώκοντας, εὐλογεῖτε καὶ μὴ καταρᾶσθε (xii. 14), cf. Matt. ν. 44, Luke vi. 28; love as the fulfilling of the law (xiii. 8-10, also Gal. v. 14), cf. Matt. xxii. 34-40, Mark xii. 28-84, Luke x. 25-27; ἕκαστος ἡμῶν περὶ ἑαυτοῦ λόγον δώσει τῷ Θεῷ (xiv. 12), cf. Matt. xii. 86. Perhaps the Gospel used was the one recognised by the Marcionites. The friends of tradition who, following the Fathers mentioned above, would identify it with our third Gospel, are confronted with the necessity of placing the Epistle at least as late as the end of the first or the beginning of the second century, unless they have the courage to accept the third Gospel as a work which Luke the companion of Paul had already completed. In any case, the use of it indicates a later date than that which is traditionally assigned to the Epistle to the Romans.

Thomas Whittaker, The Origins of Christianity: With an Outline of Van Manen's Analysis of the Pauline Literature, my bold, p. 132-133)

Re: Van Manen about *Ev being a diplomatic Gospel

Posted: Thu May 23, 2024 3:28 am
by davidmartin
which is Detering's argument. that the epistles provide the needed authenticity of a 1st century witness who is presented as 'nipping heresies in the bud', and can ignore whatever he wants by the historical placement near the start of the movement. So, of course stuff preceded the epistles as they were not first. MLinssens argument is the extent to which the gospels do not know the epistles (statistically) means the bulk of the content existed earlier and were attached to the letters which themselves ignored them (as they do the historical Jesus and as do Gnostic texts)

Re: Van Manen about *Ev being a diplomatic Gospel

Posted: Thu May 23, 2024 4:30 am
by Giuseppe
davidmartin wrote: Thu May 23, 2024 3:28 am So, of course stuff preceded the epistles as they were not first.
And that material (that preceded or paralleled the epistles fabricated in the 'school of Marcion'), according to Van Manen, is *Ev or a proto-gospel resembling a lot to *Ev.

Bruno Bauer would have said proto-Mark, but Bruno Bauer didn't know yet the Volkmar's finding that Mark assumes the existence of the marcionite Apostolikon therefore it could only come after Marcion and not before.

Indeed, without Volkmar, Bruno Bauer would have had the last word.

Re: Van Manen about *Ev being a diplomatic Gospel

Posted: Thu May 23, 2024 6:32 am
by davidmartin
Giuseppe wrote: Thu May 23, 2024 4:30 am And that material (that preceded or paralleled the epistles fabricated in the 'school of Marcion'), according to Van Manen, is *Ev or a proto-gospel resembling a lot to *Ev.

Bruno Bauer would have said proto-Mark, but Bruno Bauer didn't know yet the Volkmar's finding that Mark assumes the existence of the marcionite Apostolikon therefore it could only come after Marcion and not before.
Van Manen is making sense, that's the trouble with Mark as a first gospel
it has to miraculously come both after Marcion (if it knows the apostolikon) and before Marcion (if there was a proto-gospel)
or Mark was simply based on Ev so then it's free to come after the apostolikon as much as it likes!

i suppose what dissatisfies some is a pre-Marcionite source reduces the importance of the Marcionites and epistle collection... as if that complicates the problem and removes a nice, clean solution. the quest would then be on to find an earlier iteration of the 'phenomenon' that could explain how the marcionites/epistles might emerge from it.