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New article on the Quest of the historical Jesus

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2024 11:11 am
by Giuseppe

Author’s note: Some years ago, the German publishing house De Gruyter contacted the present author, asking him to contribute an entry with the title “Quest of the Historical Jesus” to the Encyclopedia of the Bible and Its Reception. This contribution was provided by the author to EBR in February 2023. In June 2024, the author was told that the second part of his text “cannot be accepted.” In the face of this act of censorship, the author decided to withdraw his whole text from EBR. The text published here is a slightly expanded version.

https://bibleinterp.arizona.edu/article ... assessment

Re: New article on the Quest of the historical Jesus

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2024 12:16 pm
by maryhelena
Giuseppe wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2024 11:11 am
Author’s note: Some years ago, the German publishing house De Gruyter contacted the present author, asking him to contribute an entry with the title “Quest of the Historical Jesus” to the Encyclopedia of the Bible and Its Reception. This contribution was provided by the author to EBR in February 2023. In June 2024, the author was told that the second part of his text “cannot be accepted.” In the face of this act of censorship, the author decided to withdraw his whole text from EBR. The text published here is a slightly expanded version.

https://bibleinterp.arizona.edu/article ... assessment
Thanks for link. :thumbup:

Previous thread on a seditious Jesus.

viewtopic.php?p=165056#p165056

Re: New article on the Quest of the historical Jesus

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2024 2:21 pm
by GakuseiDon

... the widespread contention that the quest is⸺because of the lack of consensus and the irreconcilable nature of the available images of Jesus⸺an irretrievably chaotic space, or a hopeless enterprise, is unsound: when the conflictual nature of the quest and the inroad of ideological interests into the field are grasped, one easily finds order and logic behind the apparent confusion.

Controversial! Is it possible for one to find order and logic without previously eliminating those elements that one has already subjectively determined are not consistent with order and logic? If that's the case, we should be able to agree objectively on those elements to eliminate.

The unsatisfactory nature of the evidence about Jesus demands from the historians, as in the study of other figures of the past, the drawing up of hypotheses from which the most plausible reconstruction can be obtained given the available data. Any credible account of Jesus’ story is necessarily conjectural, but, when the different reconstructions are compared regarding contextual plausibility, internal consistency, historical sensitivity, and explanatory power, it becomes clear that they are not at all equivalent, and that most of them do not stand scrutiny. Only those hypotheses which provide the most likely reconstruction of Jesus as an intelligible actor within the first-century Palestine under Roman and Herodian rule are adequate from an epistemological standpoint and deserve being taken seriously into account.

That is nicely said. I agree since it appeals to my own personal sense of logic and order.

Re: New article on the Quest of the historical Jesus

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2024 7:50 pm
by Giuseppe
GakuseiDon wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2024 2:21 pm
Only those hypotheses which provide the most likely reconstruction of Jesus as an intelligible actor within the first-century Palestine under Roman and Herodian rule are adequate from an epistemological standpoint and deserve being taken seriously into account.

That is nicely said. I agree since it appeals to my own personal sense of logic and order.
obviously a preliminary step is to prove the existence of the "actor" in question by what I consider an independent evidence. Note yet that "those hypotheses" meant by the prof Bermejo-Rubio are limited to a seditious Jesus. The Jesus proposed by you, i.e. a magician Jesus if I remember well, is not even contemplated among the hypotheses.

Re: New article on the Quest of the historical Jesus

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2024 8:39 pm
by MrMacSon

The unsatisfactory nature of the evidence about Jesus demands from the historians, as in the study of other figures of the past, the drawing up of hypotheses from which the most plausible reconstruction can be obtained given the available data. Any credible account of Jesus’ story is necessarily conjectural [so is of doubtful credibility], but, when the different reconstructions are compared regarding contextual plausibility, internal consistency, historical sensitivity, and explanatory power, it becomes clear that they are not at all equivalent, and that most of them do not stand scrutiny. Only those hypotheses which provide the most likely reconstruction of Jesus as an intelligible actor...deserve being taken seriously into account.

Fernando Bermejo-Rubio's article starts with circular, confirming 'reasoning,' thus:

The quest for the historical Jesus is, at least in theory, a 'rational enterprise' which assumes that Jesus of Nazareth indeed existed and was a historical actor ... Its starting point is dissatisfaction with the available sources (above all, the Canonical Gospels), insofar as they are riddled with incongruities, contradictions, anachronisms, and unreliable claims.

He shoots himself in the foot with his second sentence there^ (as well as with his special-pleading in the first excerpt).

Re: New article on the Quest of the historical Jesus

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2024 10:15 pm
by GakuseiDon
Giuseppe wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2024 7:50 pmobviously a preliminary step is to prove the existence of the "actor" in question by what I consider an independent evidence.
That's true, and from what I've read the Quests all seem to start with the idea that there was a historical Jesus is the most reasonable option. But no-one AFAIK has provided an argument for that. Dr Ehrman's book "Did Jesus Exist?" is the closest we have AFAIK (if anyone has any book suggestions on that topic please recommend them). The only one who has treated the question as a hypothesis -- which is all that it is until it can be supported -- is Dr Carrier.
Giuseppe wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2024 7:50 pmNote yet that "those hypotheses" meant by the prof Bermejo-Rubio are limited to a seditious Jesus.
Do you know if he looks at the question of whether Jesus existed at all, or does he simply begin from that assumption? From the article link, it seems to be the latter.

Re: New article on the Quest of the historical Jesus

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2024 10:37 pm
by Giuseppe
GakuseiDon wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2024 10:15 pmDr Ehrman's book "Did Jesus Exist?" is the closest we have AFAIK (if anyone has any book suggestions on that topic please recommend them).
the best case as far as I know is this article by Samuel Zinner.
GakuseiDon wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2024 10:15 pm
Giuseppe wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2024 7:50 pmNote yet that "those hypotheses" meant by the prof Bermejo-Rubio are limited to a seditious Jesus.
Do you know if he looks at the question of whether Jesus existed at all, or does he simply begin from that assumption? From the article link, it seems to be the latter.
insofar he thinks that Josephus mentioned Jesus in negative terms as a seditious rebel (and from this POV he would converge with Zinner's view), he is particularly perspicacious in corroborating a such Josephus's view of Jesus by using the same canonical Gospels.

I don't know yet if he is one of the scholars who argue that the TF is partially authentic because it couldn't be otherwise (given the "evidence" in the Gospels), or if he starts with the proof that Josephus mentioned Jesus and only after he examines the gospels in search for corroborative evidence.

In the first case, he would be not so different from the scholars criticized by him.

Re: New article on the Quest of the historical Jesus

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2024 10:46 pm
by maryhelena

The quest for the historical Jesus is, at least in theory, a 'rational enterprise' which assumes that Jesus of Nazareth indeed existed and was a historical actor .

I wonder how long it's going take before Bermejo-Rubio, as a historian, to begin to question this assumption.

Only those hypotheses which provide the most likely reconstruction of Jesus as an intelligible actor within the first-century Palestine under Roman and Herodian rule are adequate from an epistemological standpoint and deserve being taken seriously into account.

Roman control of Judaea began in 63 b.c. Herod was appointed King in 40 b.c. and captured Jerusalem in 37 b.c.
Bermejo-Rubio, as a historian, knows all this - yet seeks to confine his quest for the historical Jesus to the first century.

Sedition, rebellion, against Roman control of Judaea began long before the time of Tiberius and Pilate. To neglect that history is unworthy of any historian seeking a seditionist under Roman rule. Bermejo-Rubio needs to reject the assumption keeping him from fully doing what historians are supposed to be doing - history.

As things now stand, Bermejo-Rubio's seditious Jesus theory, while demonstrating that a seditious element is within the gospel Jesus story - can't move beyond that. It is unable to challenge the 'man of peace' interpretation of the gospel Jesus, an interpretation that has far more selling power for Christians. Yes, a 'man of war' can become a 'man of peace'. (Mandela being one such figure). The problem for that scenario, in related to a historical Jesus figure, would be that 'all was quite under Tiberius' - there was no major rebellion, sedition, against Rome at that time. (a point made by Lena Einhorn in her book, A Shift in Time)

Bermejo-Rubio is up against a brick wall with a seditious Jesus under Tiberius and Pilate. (as his recent article, linked to above, demonstrates.) Rather than get frustrated - he must surely realize that fighting for a seditious *Jesus* must take him away from Tiberius and Pilate and into the dark, tragic, last days of the end of Hasmonean rule in Judaea.

===========

From a post of mine to a thread on Lena Einhorn's book:

A man of violence, a man of war = A Davidic prototype.
A man of peace and love = A Joseph prototype.

Rather than run with the idea that individuals are complex characters and can thus display both violence and love.....(after all, such an argument as a tool for historical research into the NT story gains nothing at all) perhaps consider the idea that the gospel figure of Jesus is a composite literary figure. That way opens up the discussion to an historical approach rather than a purely NT interpretive approach.

A composite literary figure reflecting two historical figures; two historical figures that display or reflect the two elements, violence and peace, as primary characteristics of their historical roles.

A prominent man of war was the last Hasmonean King and High Priest. Executed by the Romans in 37 bc.

Antigonus II Mattathias

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigonus_II_Mattathias
Josephus states that Mark Antony beheaded Antigonus (Antiquities, XV 1:2 (8–9). Roman historian Cassius Dio says he was crucified and records in his Roman History: "These people [the Jews] Antony entrusted to a certain Herod to govern; but Antigonus he bound to a cross and scourged, a punishment no other king had suffered at the hands of the Romans, and so slew him."[6] In his Life of Antony, Plutarch claims that Antony had Antigonus beheaded, "the first example of that punishment being inflicted on a king."[7]


A prominent man of peace was Philip the Tetrarch - who, re Josephus, died around 33/34 c.e. after ruling 37 years in a land outside of Judea.
Josephus Ant.18.ch.4.par.6

6. About this time it was that Philip, Herod's ' brother, departed this life, in the twentieth year of the reign of Tiberius, after he had been tetrarch of Trachonitis and Gaulanitis, and of the nation of the Bataneans also, thirty-seven years. He had showed himself a person of moderation and quietness in the conduct of his life and government; he constantly lived in that country which was subject to him; he used to make his progress with a few chosen friends; his tribunal also, on which he sat in judgment, followed him in his progress; and when any one met him who wanted his assistance, he made no delay, but had his tribunal set down immediately, wheresoever he happened to be, and sat down upon it, and heard his complaint: he there ordered the guilty that were convicted to be punished, and absolved those that had been accused unjustly. He died at Julias; and when he was carried to that monument which he had already erected for himself beforehand, he was buried with great pomp. His principality Tiberius took, (for he left no sons behind him,) and added it to the province of Syria, but gave order that the tributes which arose from it should be collected, and laid up in his tetrachy.


These two historical figures, I would suggest, are the two prototypes used by the gospel writers in the creation of their literary, composite, Jesus figure.

Why? Well now, that is the million dollar question..... ;)


Re: New article on the Quest of the historical Jesus

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2024 7:12 am
by DCHindley
This article by Fernando Bermejo-Rubio was well stated. He is spot on about identifying the scholars who represent the "consensus" and sub-consensuses. I like Fernando Bermejo-Rubio's way of discussing the issues. I think that about 95% of his views are more or less accurate. If anyone was following the discussions on Crosstalk2, the IIDB, FRDB, etc., from the late 1990s to around 2005 or so, will be familiar with most all the English language scholars he discusses.

What we're seeing here, though, are folks who are bashing the messenger for bringing bad news, at least from the basher's POV. In his reasoned opinion, the NT and early Christian fathers and non-christian sources (Philo, Josephus, Tacitus, etc.) support the idea that he was a historical figure who was arrested by the Romans as an unauthorized claimant to the title "King of the Judeans." I might be characterizing his POV incorrectly, but I think that Bermejo-Rubio feels Jesus mythicists are just expressing wishful thinking.

Modern Jesus mythicists have not been able to come up with improvements to the early Marxist writers' (Engels, Kautsky, etc.) rather ambitious attempts to justify their assumptions, utilizing philosophy, socio-economic inspired social anthropology and other pagan literary sources in the process, that more modern attempts have not really come close to. The exceptions might be Gerd Theissen's wandering itinerants that have also inspired Didache researchers. And perhaps Social-Anthropological approaches such as those by Horsley & the Context Group. Funny thing is, they depend a lot on the Sociological work of Max Weber, who had also adopted a Marxist like socio-economic model.

That still does not mean historical Jesus scholarship has adequately addressed how the role that Jesus played in the story went from a family driven political-nationalist figure executed by Romans for claiming to be king of "Judeans," to that of a divine or semi-divine savior/redeemer figure that resonated with gentiles attracted to the idea of a single just God. The latter is what we know from the NT & early Christian literature.

While I think I have figured a credible explanation for our present NT: Separating the Jesus and Pauline movements as independent of one another at first, and later the Divine Redeemer theology was interpolated into letters originally (or, thought to be) from Paul, in that awkward way that they have come to us now (150-180 CE, Irenaeus' time) in the "p (Pauline letters)" & "a (the particularly Acts)" manuscript traditions. I'd call that Redeemer Christ language in "p" represents that of an early advocate for a Divine-Redeemer Jesus. This new theology, still rough around the edges, were introduced into collections of Pauline letters during a period when the two movements started to become aware of each other, and there were existing Pauline collections that were revised to include this early critic's commentary on them.

The "e (Four Gospel collection)" manuscripts developed independently, except for the introduction of it to remnant followers of Paul's gentile friends who venerate the Judean God, in the "adopted and adapted" final revision we know as the Pauline Corpus today. Those who propose that "Pauline" Divine-Redeemer Christ theology influenced this or that Gospel (usually Mark), seem to uncritically assume the genuineness of the letters as we have them (or at least the limited selection that the critic accepts as "authentic"). As I stated earlier, I'd call the Divine Redeemer Christ theology in the Gospels a more mature evolution of the hot and hairy commentary woven into the Paulines.

Lawn ain't gonna mow itself ... :goodmorning:

DCH

Edit: Hmmm, many grammatical issues there. That dang grass still wants a haircut. must return later ...

Re: New article on the Quest of the historical Jesus

Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2024 6:22 am
by andrewcriddle
GakuseiDon wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2024 10:15 pm
Giuseppe wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2024 7:50 pmobviously a preliminary step is to prove the existence of the "actor" in question by what I consider an independent evidence.
That's true, and from what I've read the Quests all seem to start with the idea that there was a historical Jesus is the most reasonable option. But no-one AFAIK has provided an argument for that. Dr Ehrman's book "Did Jesus Exist?" is the closest we have AFAIK (if anyone has any book suggestions on that topic please recommend them).
From an earlier generation but interesting there is Jesus the Nazarene: Myth or History? by Maurice Goguel.

Andrew Criddle