Page 1 of 1

An intriguing quote by Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 1:11

Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2024 11:52 pm
by Giuseppe

for the philosophy which is in accordance with divine tradition establishes and confirms providence, which, being done away with, the economy of the Saviour appears a myth, while we are influenced after the elements of the world, and not after Christ.

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/02101.htm

Re: An intriguing quote by Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 1:11

Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2024 12:51 am
by MrMacSon
Specifically:

for the philosophy which is in accordance with divine tradition establishes and confirms providence, which, being done away with, the economy of the Saviour appears a myth, while we are influenced "after the elements of the world, and not after Christ" [Colossians 2:8],

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/02101.htm

And more fully, ie. before and after that excerpt, all using & aligned with Colossians 2:4-8:


But seeking ends in finding, driving out the empty trifling, and approving of the contemplation which confirms our faith. "And this I say, lest any man beguile you with enticing words," says the apostle [in Colossians 2:4], evidently as having learned to distinguish what was said by him, and as being taught to meet objections. "As you have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, rooted and built up in Him, and established in the faith" [Colossians 2:6-7].

Now persuasion is being established in the faith. Beware lest any man spoil you of faith in Christ by philosophy and vain deceit, which does away with providence, after the tradition of men [Colossians 2:8a&b]; for the philosophy which is in accordance with divine tradition establishes and confirms providence, which, being done away with, the economy of the Saviour appears a myth, while we are influenced "after the elements of the world, and not after Christ" [Colossians 2:8c].
  • κατὰ τὰ στοιχεῖα τοῦ κόσμου, καὶ οὐ κατὰ Χριστόν
    according to the elements of the world, and not according to Christ
For the teaching which is agreeable to Christ deifies the Creator,* and traces providence in particular events, and knows the nature of the elements to be capable of change and production; and teaches that we ought to aim at rising up to the power which assimilates to God, and to prefer the dispensation as holding the first rank and superior to all training.


* That - "For the teaching which is agreeable to Christ deifies the Creator" - seems to me to be Marcionite (as, subsequently, does, "teaches that we ought to aim at rising up to the power which assimilates to God," and, "to prefer the dispensation as holding the first rank and superior to all training.")

Re: An intriguing quote by Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 1:11

Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2024 3:47 am
by GakuseiDon
Giuseppe wrote: Sat Jul 06, 2024 11:52 pm
for the philosophy which is in accordance with divine tradition establishes and confirms providence, which, being done away with, the economy of the Saviour appears a myth, while we are influenced after the elements of the world, and not after Christ.

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/02101.htm
Providence was an important concept in ancient times. Did God/gods direct everything that happens in this world, or did He/they not care? Some groups like the Epicureans didn't think there was a divine providence. They thought things happened by chance. If that was the case, then the idea of a Christ sent by divine providence was a myth.

Re: An intriguing quote by Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 1:11

Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2024 4:05 am
by Giuseppe
Providence is given by the philosophy. Clement is saying that without the correct exegesis, the Gospel story appears as a brute myth.

Re: An intriguing quote by Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 1:11

Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2024 4:21 am
by Giuseppe
A similar idea in Irenaeus, 1:6, 2:

Animal men, again, are instructed in animal things.


Re: An intriguing quote by Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 1:11

Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2024 7:52 am
by Secret Alias
A similar play on words (with hunting) appears at the beginning of Exhortation (from memory).

Re: An intriguing quote by Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 1:11

Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2024 1:44 pm
by Peter Kirby
GakuseiDon wrote: Sun Jul 07, 2024 3:47 am If that was the case, then the idea of a Christ sent by divine providence was a myth.
A similar quote:

1 Cor 15:16-19. For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.


Re: An intriguing quote by Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 1:11

Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2024 5:19 pm
by GakuseiDon
Giuseppe wrote: Sun Jul 07, 2024 4:05 am Providence is given by the philosophy. Clement is saying that without the correct exegesis, the Gospel story appears as a brute myth.
No, that's not even close to what he's saying. It has nothing to do with Gospels and myths. I suspect you saw the word "myth" and you became over-stimulated.

Clement is saying that if the elements and the atoms are not being directed by God and God's plan, then the idea of a Saviour is moot. If there is no Planner then there is no Plan, so you may as well just enjoy yourself. According to Clement:

... the Epicurean, which Paul mentions in the Acts of the Apostles, Acts 17:18 which abolishes providence and deifies pleasure, and whatever other philosophy honours the elements, but places not over them the efficient cause, nor apprehends the Creator...

... For the teaching which is agreeable to Christ deifies the Creator, and traces providence in particular events, and knows the nature of the elements to be capable of change and production, and teaches that we ought to aim at rising up to the power which assimilates to God...

... The elements are worshipped, — the air by Diogenes, the water by Thales, the fire by Hippasus; and by those who suppose atoms to be the first principles of things, arrogating the name of philosophers, being wretched creatures devoted to pleasure.


Other intriguing passages in Clement of Alexandria's Stromata 1

Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2024 8:27 pm
by MrMacSon
The start of Stromata 1:5:


Accordingly, before the advent of the Lord, philosophy was necessary to the Greeks for righteousness. And now it becomes conducive to piety; being a kind of preparatory training to those who attain to faith through demonstration. "For your foot," it is said, "will not stumble, if you refer what is good, whether belonging to the Greeks or to us, to Providence" [Proverbs 3:23]. For God is the cause of all good things; but of some primarily, as of the Old and the New Testament; and of others by consequence, as philosophy. Perchance, too, philosophy was given to the Greeks directly and primarily, till the Lord should call the Greeks. For this was a schoolmaster to bring "the Hellenic mind," as the law, the Hebrews, "to Christ" [Galatians 3:24].

Philosophy, therefore, was a preparation, paving the way for him who is perfected in Christ.

"Now," says Solomon, "defend wisdom, and it will exalt you, and it will shield you with a crown of pleasure" [Proverbs 4:8-9]. For when you have strengthened wisdom with a cope by philosophy, and with right expenditure, you will preserve it unassailable by sophists. The way of truth is therefore one. But into it, as into a perennial river, streams flow from all sides. It has been therefore said by inspiration: "Hear, my son, and receive my words; that yours may be the many ways of life. For I teach you the ways of wisdom; that the fountains fail you not" [Proverbs 4:10, 21a (LXX)], which gush forth from the earth itself.

Not only did He enumerate several ways of salvation for any one righteous man, but He added many other ways of many righteous, speaking thus: "The paths of the righteous shine like the light" [Proverbs 4:18]. The commandments and the modes of preparatory training are to be regarded as the ways and appliances of life.


And the start of chapter 7:

The Greek preparatory culture, therefore, with philosophy itself, is shown to have come down from God to men, not with a definite direction but in the way in which showers fall down on the good land, and on the dunghill, and on the houses. And similarly both the grass and the wheat sprout; and the figs and any other reckless trees grow on sepulchres. And things that grow, appear as a type of truths. For they enjoy the same influence of the rain. But they have not the same grace as those which spring up in rich soil, inasmuch as they are withered or plucked up. And here we are aided by the parable of the sower, which the Lord interpreted. For the husbandman of the soil which is among men is one; He who from the beginning, from the foundation of the world, sowed nutritious seeds; He who in each age rained down the Lord, the Word. But the times and places which received [such gifts], created the differences which exist.

The middle of chapter 9:

And our much-knowing gnostic can distinguish sophistry from philosophy, the art of decoration from gymnastics, cookery from physic, and rhetoric from dialectics, and the other sects which are according to the barbarian philosophy, from the truth itself. And how necessary is it for him who desires to be partaker of the power of God, to treat of intellectual subjects by philosophising! And how serviceable is it to distinguish expressions which are ambiguous, and which in the Testaments are used synonymously!


Re: An intriguing quote by Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 1:11

Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2024 8:35 pm
by Giuseppe
GakuseiDon wrote: Sun Jul 07, 2024 5:19 pmthen the idea of a Saviour is moot.
the "idea" would be the "economy of the Saviour", his plan for the world: descent, ministry, death, ascension etc. Another term to mean the Gospel story. Sic et simpliciter.