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Re: Understanding How Morton Smith Repurposed Clement's Writings to Make the Letter to Theodore.

Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2024 7:06 am
by StephenGoranson
Ancient Greek letters that are complete do not end that way.
Consider, e.g., the letters of Ignatius of Antioch (available in many editions).
Farewell

Re: Understanding How Morton Smith Repurposed Clement's Writings to Make the Letter to Theodore.

Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2024 9:13 am
by Secret Alias
The Syriac recension. Long before this debate I have argued consistently for the Syriac's originality. Reality is what you make it. If you buy into the "polished church" yes the ending of letters are "supposed to be" refined and polished. But even Origen's letter Theodore ends more abruptly than this letter to Theodore. Reality is what you make it.

Re: Understanding How Morton Smith Repurposed Clement's Writings to Make the Letter to Theodore.

Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2024 9:49 am
by StephenGoranson
Are you now arguing that Clement of Alexandria was not "refined and polished"?

Re: Understanding How Morton Smith Repurposed Clement's Writings to Make the Letter to Theodore.

Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2024 10:28 am
by Secret Alias
While it's true that many ancient Greek letters, such as those of Ignatius of Antioch, often conclude with polished and formal farewells, it's important to remember that not all letters adhere to a standardized format. The context and content of a letter can greatly influence its ending.

For instance, the Letter to Theodore, attributed to Clement of Alexandria, may appear abrupt because it deals with esoteric content not suitable for written correspondence. In fact, Clement himself notes in his writings that letters are not the appropriate medium for discussing sacred mysteries. Given this perspective, a brief and seemingly abrupt conclusion would be entirely fitting, signaling the end of what could be safely communicated in writing.

Additionally, I've already pointed out, the letter’s abrupt end might be seen as a deliberate rhetorical device. By stopping suddenly, Clement effectively communicates that there is much more to discuss, but not in a letter. This approach aligns with the idea of protecting sacred knowledge from potential misuse or misunderstanding.

Therefore, while the ending might seem unconventional compared to more polished epistolary traditions, it makes sense within the specific context and purpose of Clement’s communication.

Re: Understanding How Morton Smith Repurposed Clement's Writings to Make the Letter to Theodore.

Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2024 10:34 am
by StephenGoranson
no.

Re: Understanding How Morton Smith Repurposed Clement's Writings to Make the Letter to Theodore.

Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2024 10:43 am
by Secret Alias
yes.

Re: Understanding How Morton Smith Repurposed Clement's Writings to Make the Letter to Theodore.

Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2024 1:15 pm
by StephenGoranson
You did not reply to my question:
Are you now arguing that Clement of Alexandria was not "refined and polished"?

Re: Understanding How Morton Smith Repurposed Clement's Writings to Make the Letter to Theodore.

Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2024 1:31 pm
by Secret Alias
Please stop this. I answered your question. The next question is for you. You really believe the robotic structure of the Ignatius letters is a product of Ignatius writing the letters this way? The Ignatius collection is artificial. There is no doubt about this. It was "polished" by a later editor.

Re: Understanding How Morton Smith Repurposed Clement's Writings to Make the Letter to Theodore.

Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2024 1:37 pm
by Secret Alias
You would think the Letter to Theodore would be more genuine if it ended like this?

Ἔρρωσθε ἐν θεῷ πατρὶ καὶ ἐν Ἰησοῦ Χριστῷ, τῇ κοινῇ ἐλπίδι ἡμῶν.
Ἔρρωσθε ἐν ὁμονοίᾳ θεοῦ κεκτημένοι ἀδιάκριτον πνεῦμα, ὅς ἐστιν Ἰησοῦς Χριστός.
Ἔρρωσθε ἐν Ἰησοῦ Χριστῷ, ὑποτασσόμενοι τῷ ἐπισκόπῳ ὡς τῇ ἐντολῇ, ὁμοίως καὶ τῷ πρεσβυτερίῳ.
Ἔρρωσθε εἰς τέλος ἐν ὑπομονῇ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ.
Ἔρρωσθε ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ, τῇ κοινῇ ἐλπίδι ἡμῶν.
Ἔρρωσθέ μοι ἐν δυνάμει πνεύματος. Ἀσπάζεται ὑμᾶς Φίλων σὺν ἐμοὶ ὤν ... Ἔρρωσθε ἐν χάριτι θεοῦ.
Ἔρρωσθε ἐν κυρίῳ

Yes people wrote letters this way. They also ended letters without a postscript. The Syriac letters are more original. No doubt the Ignatian epistles, the Pauline epistles were reworked to make them seem more polished.

Re: Understanding How Morton Smith Repurposed Clement's Writings to Make the Letter to Theodore.

Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2024 1:47 pm
by Secret Alias
The ending to Origen's Letter to Theodore:

τούτῳ ὁ θυρωρὸς ἀνοίγει. καὶ προσέχων τῇ θείᾳ ἀναγνώσει ὀρθῶς ζήτει καὶ μετὰ πίστεως τῆς εἰς θεὸν ἀκλινοῦς τὸν κεκρυμμένον τοῖς πολλοῖς νοῦν τῶν θείων γραμμάτων. μὴ ἀρκοῦ δὲ τῷ κρούειν καὶ ζητεῖν· ἀναγκαιοτάτη γὰρ καὶ ἡ περὶ τοῦ νοεῖν τὰ θεῖα εὐχή· ἐφ' ἣν προτρέπων ὁ σωτὴρ οὐ μόνον εἶπεν τό· κρούετε, καὶ ἀνοιγήσεται ὑμῖν· καὶ τό· ζητεῖτε, καὶ εὑρήσετε· ἀλλὰ καὶ τό· αἰτεῖτε, καὶ δοθήσεται ὑμῖν. ταῦτα ἀπὸ τῆς πρός σε ἐμοῦ πατρικῆς ἀγάπης τετόλμηται. εἰ δ' εὖ ἔχει τὰ τετολμημένα ἢ μὴ, θεὸς ἂν εἰδείη καὶ ὁ χριστὸς αὐτοῦ καὶ ὁ μετέχων πνεύματος θεοῦ καὶ πνεύματος χριστοῦ. μετέχοις δὲ σὺ, καὶ ἀεὶ αὔξοις τὴν μετοχὴν, ἵνα λέγῃς οὐ μόνον τό· μέτοχοι τοῦ χριστοῦ γεγόναμεν, ἀλλὰ καὶ· μέτοχοι τοῦ θεοῦ γεγόναμεν.

"To this one the gatekeeper opens. Pay attention to the divine reading, seek rightly, and with faith in God unwavering, search for the hidden meaning of the divine scriptures that is concealed from the many. Do not be content with merely knocking and seeking; for prayer is also most necessary concerning the understanding of divine things. Encouraging this, the Savior said not only, 'Knock, and it shall be opened to you,' and 'Seek, and you shall find,' but also, 'Ask, and it shall be given to you.'

These things I have dared to write to you from my paternal love. Whether these daring things are good or not, God might know, and His Christ, and the one who shares in the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ. May you share, and always increase your sharing, so that you may say not only, 'We have become partakers of Christ,' but also, 'We have become partakers of God.'"