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Re: Fernando Bermejo-Rubio latest article June 2024

Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2024 10:24 pm
by maryhelena
StephenGoranson wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 1:08 pm maryhelena, above:
"Can you quote her words on this proposal ?"

Though I don't have the book at hand, here is a snippet from google books.

"In Josephus we have three legal schools as being in authority during this time period also: Pharisees, Essenes, and Sadducees, in order of numbers. It seems then not unreasonable to assume that the Herodians of Mark are the Essenes of Josephus and Philo, by another name."

Page 123 in
The Essenes, the Scrolls, and the Dead Sea
Joan E. Taylor.
Oxford : Oxford University Press, 2012.
Thanks for reply, Stephen. I was thinking you were quoting Joan Taylor from the link I had provided to her free article in the June 2024 edition of the Journal for the study of the Historical Jesus. It seems its a book of Taylor's that you quoted from. I know the Essenes are an interest of yours. However, I won't respond on this thread to Taylor's theory. The focus of this thread is Bermejo-Rubio's new article.

Re: Fernando Bermejo-Rubio latest article June 2024

Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2024 11:09 am
by StephenGoranson
Brief aside, since Joan E. Taylor's article was linked here.
In 1993f she taught about Pharisees, Sadducees and Essenes.
In 2009f she taught about Pharisees, Sadducees and Herodians.
Hence my comment.
Now, back to Bermejo-Rubio.

Re: Fernando Bermejo-Rubio latest article June 2024

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2024 1:01 am
by maryhelena
In his new article in the Journal for the Study of the historical Jesus (June 2024) Bermejo-Rubio strives to demonstrate that his reconstruction of the gospel Jesus reflects a seditious element. However, he is at pains to make clear that his reconstruction does not depend upon any one element in the gospel Jesus story.

Nickel: In essence, therefore, he [Bermejo-Rubio] expands Dunn’s statement: “to be ‘historical’ the Historical Jesus must have been crucifiable” … and to be crucifiable, the Historical Jesus must have been seditious.33’
Before going on, let us realize that the above-mentioned sentence is not an isolated statement. He makes the same point, even more clearly, elsewhere:
Nickel: For Bermejo-Rubio, therefore, the Gospels’ accounts of Jesus’s death lead to the following line of reasoning: (i) Jesus is crucified; (ii) crucifixion was the Roman punishment for sedition; therefore (iii) Jesus must have been seditious.’’
In other words, according to Nickel, I would imply that Jesus’ crucifixion is enough to prove that he was involved in sedition.

<snip>

Unfortunately, these things are ascribed to me that I have never written and that I do not believe at all. In fact, the syllogism used by Nickel as if it were my own is just a concoction of his. Significantly, that syllogism is an obvious and simplistic non sequitur, involving a logical flaw (not to mention a worrying insensitivity), because not every person crucified by Rome in Judea was an insurgent or one of his accomplices. Of course, the Roman authorities sometimes crucified innocent people. For instance, even the (usually) proRoman Josephus was very critical towards the procurator Florus because he crucified Jews undeserving of that kind of punishment.35

The simple truth is that, once again, Nickel misses the point and mischaracterizes what I have said. Like a magician pulling a rabbit out of his hat, he makes a syllogism appear that shines by its absence in my own writings. In fact, to my knowledge no scholar has ever made such problematic interpretations. Be that as it may, as I have made crystal clear in several works, the hypothesis that the Galilean apocalyptic visionary was somehow involved in anti-Roman (and anti-Herodian) resistance does not merely depend on the fact that he was crucified by Roman soldiers. Far from it, that historical reconstruction depends on many pieces of evidence, most of them provided by the Gospel narratives themselves. It depends on the reports that he was crucified along with λῃσταί (prima facie ‘bandits’, but actually insurgents);36 on the many snippets of evidence pointing to his kingly-messianic claim;37 on the revealing clues witnessing a mutual hostility between the Galilean preacher and the pro-Roman tetrarch Herod Antipas, who wanted him killed;38 on the unmistakable political implications of the kingdom he was preaching, as far a it entailed the expectation of the end of Gentile dominion over Israel; on the traces in the Synoptics that, after John the Baptist’s beheading, Jesus tried to go unnoticed by the tetrarch of Galilee;39 on the radical demands of a preacher who impressed upon his followers that discipleship is synonymous with suffering, even with the danger of death (and of death on a cross);40 on the reports that he promised that his twelve disciples would sit on thrones to judge and rule Israel’s restored tribes;41 on the traces betraying a bellicose stance by him and by his most intimate followers;42 on the reports about the presence of swords in Jesus’ group;43 on the accounts conveying his nationalistic and anti-Gentile outlook;44 on the evidence suggesting his opposition to the payment of tribute to Rome;45 on the this-worldly character of such an expected kingdom;46 and so on.47 Even more crucially, the hypothesis depends on the fact that all these elements – along with others – make up an image of Jesus which is contextually plausible, entirely consistent, and endowed with the greatest explanatory capacity.

Since it is all this evidence that the hypothesis actually relies upon (and Nickel should know it well, because he cites several articles of mine in which this point is made absolutely clear), to assert that I contend it relies on the mere fact that Jesus was crucified is a phantom assertion and a distortion

Although the argument that many pieces of evidence, re Bermejo-Rubio, suggest a seditious Jesus, it does seem to me that all the elements he references, on their own, without the crucifixion element, would not be sufficient for a Roman crucifixion of note - i.e. surely, it was not just a Roman crucifixion in and off itself - it was the man crucified that would merit attention. A nobody on a cross - perhaps plenty of those around - but a somebody on a cross would be a different, even a historical incident. Methinks, a weak point for Bermejo-Rubio to, as it were, downplay the significance of the cross by viewing it simply as one of many elements in his seditious Jesus hypostasis.

Thinking here of the The Crucifiable Jesus by Steven Brian Pounds

I shall conclude that a messianic acclamation by Jesus' disciples coupled with Jesus' own view of his central role in the arrival of the kingdom of God, together explain how he came to be crucified as one who seditiously claimed to be “King of the Jews''.

here

Re: Fernando Bermejo-Rubio latest article June 2024

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2024 1:14 am
by Giuseppe
Thank you.

Indeed, Beemejo-Rubio remains the only historicist scholar who "disturbs" my confidence in mythicism.

Does he say something about the argument heard by me from some Christian apologists, that a late Talmudic passage says that the punishment of common robbers was usually delayed until to the Passover festival, therefore Jesus was in no relation at all with the two crucified robbers.

I don't know if Nickels uses this argument against BR. Thoughts?

Re: Fernando Bermejo-Rubio latest article June 2024

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2024 2:58 am
by Giuseppe
This is the argument:

That several men were crucified before Passover corresponds well with the report in the Tosefta (t. Sanh. 11.7) about how criminals sentenced to death were kept in prison until the festivals came around, at which point they would be crucified so that as many people as possible would see them.

(Cecilia Wassen, Tobias Hagerland, Jesus the Apocalyptic Prophet, p. 203)

The quoted passage is the following:
https://www.sefaria.org/Tosefta_Sanhedr ... l&lang2=en

Does BR reply to this (if he replies)?

Re: Fernando Bermejo-Rubio latest article June 2024

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2024 4:42 am
by Giuseppe
Nickel's greatest error is to use the Barabbas episode as a historical (!) event proving that Jesus was not really a λῃστής.

Beyond his description in the Gospels, nothing else is known about Barabbas. However, the words of the evangelists leave little doubt about the type of man this was: Barabbas is described as a seditious revolutionary (στασιαστής¹⁸⁶), a notorious (ἐπίσημος¹⁸⁷) brigand who had been imprisoned for murder (φονός¹⁸⁸) and for his participation in a recent insurrection (στάσις¹⁸⁹).¹⁹⁰ Though the Synoptic evangelists do not use the word to describe him,¹⁹¹ Barabbas was clearly a λῃστής: a freedom fighter who desired Jewish ἐλευθερία, and took up the sword against Israel’s Gentile overlords to attain it.¹⁹

(The Things that Make for Peace, p. 156, my bold)

If Barabbas is 100% fiction (and he is), then why did the evangelists invent him?
Even apart my absolute certainty that Barabbas is a caustic parody of the marcionite Jesus Son of (an Unknown) Father, it is enough clear that he was invented also to claim that Jesus was not him, Jesus was not a λῃστής (the Marcionite Jesus was a λῃστής: "blame Marcion, not us").

Someway, it seems to me that Nickel wants eagerly that Barabbas was a historical figure because in this way he can date back to the time of Jesus the opposition between Jesus and a concrete example of λῃστής.

It would be indeed strange to raise that distinction (between Jesus and a λῃστής) without giving a concrete, historical example of a λῃστής (but merely inventing one ad hoc).

It would be equivalent to say that Winston Churchill was the contrary of a tyrant, without naming a concrete example of a tyrant contemporary to Churchill.

Re: Fernando Bermejo-Rubio latest article June 2024

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2024 5:02 am
by maryhelena
Giuseppe wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2024 1:14 am Thank you.

Indeed, Beemejo-Rubio remains the only historicist scholar who "disturbs" my confidence in mythicism.
Never fear, Giuseppe. Fernando Bermejo-Rubio is a historian - and sooner or later he will have to fall on his own sword - Hoist with his own petard....An historian cannot be true to his craft with his eyes closed to historical realities....

Does he say something about the argument heard by me from some Christian apologists, that a late Talmudic passage says that the punishment of common robbers was usually delayed until to the Passover festival, therefore Jesus was in no relation at all with the two crucified robbers.

I don't know if Nickels uses this argument against BR. Thoughts?
No mention of Talmud/Talmudic in the Journal of the study of the historical Jesus article.

The Bible and Interpretation website has a new article by Bermejo-Rubio.

In Quest of the Historical Jesus: A Critical and Comprehensive Assessment

June 2024

The quest for the historical Jesus is, at least in theory, a rational enterprise which assumes that Jesus of Nazareth indeed existed and was a historical actor, understandable as any other human being in his sociopolitical, religious, economic, and cultural contexts. Its starting point is dissatisfaction with the available sources (above all, the Canonical Gospels), insofar as they are riddled with incongruities, contradictions, anachronisms, and unreliable claims.[1] By taking an epistemic approach which adopts a historical-critical view of those sources, and a detached stance towards the characters portrayed in them, it calls into question the traditional narratives, having as its goal to offer the most compelling reconstruction of Jesus’ career.

In practice, however, things are often substantially different. Although Jesus was a first-century Jew, his cultural relevance as the alleged founder of Christianity has given rise to all kinds of prejudices and controversies surrounding this issue.

https://bibleinterp.arizona.edu/article ... assessment

Bermejo-Rubio needs to get real here - he needs to face his own words - ''The quest for the historical Jesus is, at least in theory, a rational enterprise which assumes that Jesus of Nazareth indeed existed and was a historical actor.''

Assumed - assumed - assumed......................................we need more, far more from an historian...

Re: Fernando Bermejo-Rubio latest article June 2024

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2024 6:09 am
by StephenGoranson
Whatever one may make of Bermejo-Rubio's other writing, his sentence--''The quest for the historical Jesus is, at least in theory, a rational enterprise which assumes that Jesus of Nazareth indeed existed and was a historical actor.''--is logical. Obviously, he is persuaded that Jesus existed, even as he critiques some accounts of him.
Perhaps ironically, maryhelena, you suggest that, were he a better historian, he would agree with you, your less-evidenced alternate story,
you ASSUME.

PS. Tosefta, while _compiled_ after the life time of Jesus--and may of course be questioned--in terms of rabbinic literature, it is relative early (pace Giuseppe's "_late_ Talmudic passage").

Re: Fernando Bermejo-Rubio latest article June 2024

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2024 6:14 am
by Giuseppe
StephenGoranson wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2024 6:09 am
PS. Tosefta, while _compiled_ after the life time of Jesus--and may of course be questioned-- in terms of rabbinic literature, it is relative early (pace Giuseppe's "_late_ Talmudic passage").
very strange that Nickel, in a book quasi entirely devoted to the "criticism of the seditious reading", never uses the argument from the Talmudic passage to argue that Jesus was not a λῃστής.

Does he want that the two thieves are fiction while Barabbas is historical? Nonsense.

Re: Fernando Bermejo-Rubio latest article June 2024

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2024 6:19 am
by StephenGoranson
My comment was not about Nickel, but about Tosefta.