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Re: Fernando Bermejo-Rubio latest article June 2024

Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2024 10:31 pm
by maryhelena
Giuseppe wrote: Sat Jul 27, 2024 4:27 am Thank you, maryhelena, it seemed very impossible to find that speech! :thumbup:
Your welcome, Giuseppe - and I found it in your own backyard - so to speak.

It is interesting the note 2 of page 124:

For instance, it has been recently argued that the Synoptic narratives of the Passion contain a stratum composed in Judaea on the eve of the Great Revolt, and that they anachronistically reflect some facts which actually took place in the 60s in that province; see Jonathan Bourgel, ‘Les récits synoptiques de la Passion préservent-ils une couche narrative composée à la veille de la Grande Révolte Juive?’, NTS 58 (2012): 503-21.

(my bold)
Influence of events beyond the time of Tiberius and Pilate are of of course possible - but, methinks, it's the Hasmonean history prior to the time of Tiberius and Pilate that has vastly more potential. After all - there was only one King of the Jews that the Romans executed during their occupation of Judaea: Antigonus II Mattathias executed by the Roman general, Marc Antony, in Syrian Antioch, in 37 b.c.

Image

Hebrew ("Mattatayah the High Priest and Council of the Jews") / Greek inscription in three lines within wreath and border of dots: BACIL/ANTIGO/NOU ("of King Antigonus").

https://www.numismall.com/collections/a ... ient-judea


Re: Fernando Bermejo-Rubio latest article June 2024

Posted: Sun Jul 28, 2024 1:39 am
by Giuseppe
Mayhelena, does BR mention Martin Seidel in his recent article against Nickel?

Re: Fernando Bermejo-Rubio latest article June 2024

Posted: Sun Jul 28, 2024 2:35 am
by maryhelena
Giuseppe wrote: Sun Jul 28, 2024 1:39 am Mayhelena, does BR mention Martin Seidel in his recent article against Nickel?
On the Self-Styled ‘Refutation’ of the ‘Seditious
Jesus Hypothesis’ (Or Jesse Nickel’s – and
Others’ – Wishful Thinking)



This hypothesis, however, has always found the bitterest enmity in some
easily identifiable quarters whose members constitute the overwhelming
majority in the field. In fact, a whole literary subgenre (perhaps not yet
recognized as such) has developed out of such rejection. Since those authors
fiercely opposing Martin Seidel in the sixteenth to seventeenth centuries
and Reimarus in the eighteenth century, many articles and even entire
monographs have been produced to counteract that “dangerous” hypothesis
emphasizing the involvement of Jesus and his group in the politics of his time.

No serious scholar has ever labeled Jesus of Nazareth ‘a politically seditious
… revolutionary’, as if it were a precise definition. Since the works of Seidel
and Reimarus, every proponent of a historical reconstruction in which the
political dimension has been seriously taken into account has made clear that
the Galilean was a pious Jew and a religiously-inspired preacher, and has not
denied the fact that, according to the available sources, he was more than a
mere seditionist.14 But, alas, the opponents of the hypothesis have usually
preferred to offer a cheap caricature, thereby projecting onto it the blatant
one-sidedness which characterizes the standard theological portrayal.

there was a full awareness
of the political dimension of Jesus’ message, specifically from the work of the
Silesian thinker Martin Seidel,Origo et fundamenta religionis christianae.2

footnote 2

F. Socas and P. Toribio (eds.), Martin Seidel. Origo et fundamenta religionis christianae
(Madrid: csic, 2017). For a survey of the importance of this work for historical Jesus studies,
see F. Bermejo-Rubio, ‘“Hanc credo esse historiam veram de Jesu”: Martin Seidel’s Origo et
fundamenta religionis christianae, an Overlooked Milestone in the Critical Study of Western
Religion’, Journal of Religion 100 (2020), pp. 295–326

footnote 52

(as if Martin Seidel, H. S. Reimarus, Ch. Hennell, K. Kautsky, S.G.F. Brandon and others had
not existed)

footnote 70

Of course, if one accepts some material as historical within a narrative, one must then
argue that such a choice is not arbitrary. But this argumentation, defending the existence
of material that withstands critical examination, is precisely what critical scholars have
advocated since Seidel’s and Reimarus’s works.

footnote 101

Incidentally, ‘proposing a historical narrative that explains how early Christians came
to conceptualise Jesus in the ways that they did and generates theories of the historical
Jesus on the basis of that process’ (Keith cited in Nickel, Things, p. 15) is what, since
Seidel and Reimarus, proponents of the sjh have been doing through the centuries.

Love the 'wishful thinking' in the title of the article. Wherever Bermejo-Rubio ends up with his seditious Jesus hypothesis - 'wishful thinking' on the part of critics will not stop this hypothesis from being advanced. The hypothesis is just too awful so it must be rejected...but 'wishful thinking' is not going to make this hypothesis go away. It's here to stay and critics would do best to engage with it without theological or historicist apologetics.

Re: Fernando Bermejo-Rubio latest article June 2024

Posted: Sun Jul 28, 2024 11:11 am
by DCHindley
After all - there was only one King of the Jews that the Romans executed during their occupation of Judaea: Antigonus II Mattathias executed by the Roman general, Marc Antony, in Syrian Antioch, in 37 b.c.
So you don't think that Simon bar G'iora was "really" king of the Judeans when he surrendered to the Romans in royal purple garb? They took him to Rome as a captive, and after being led about in the Triumph, would have been strangled or beheaded on the traditional rockface that oversaw Rome, then his body would be thrown off the cliff face. Very dramatic, I suppose.

Josephus, however, chose not to describe this part of the ritual execution of this King of the Judeans by the Romans. I think he would have to make an appearance at Titus' triumph, but he may not have had the stomach for watching or at least describing the ritual execution of one of his ethnic kin, skipping the whole affair.

I'm not so sure that Hasmonean family history has to be the driver here. It could be a new claimant. The Romans felt that appointing Judean kings or rulers was their job, once they intervened in the Hasmonean family internal dispute. The Romans at first were very lenient with the Hasmonean brothers and their kin when it came to power struggles. When Antigonus II decided to accept help from Rome's arch enemy, Parthia, this could not be forgiven, so this source dried up on its own accord. Ultimately, Herod's kin became the pool from which to appoint regional rulers over "Judean" lands.

Not everybody agreed, including Simon b Giora, and others with alternate claims.

DCH

Re: Fernando Bermejo-Rubio latest article June 2024

Posted: Sun Jul 28, 2024 12:55 pm
by maryhelena
DCHindley wrote: Sun Jul 28, 2024 11:11 am
After all - there was only one King of the Jews that the Romans executed during their occupation of Judaea: Antigonus II Mattathias executed by the Roman general, Marc Antony, in Syrian Antioch, in 37 b.c.
So you don't think that Simon bar G'iora was "really" king of the Judeans when he surrendered to the Romans in royal purple garb?
Josephus - great narrative - would make a great movie scene......As for being 'really' a king - nothing here to get excited about...Interesting article on the coins.

The Propaganda of the Jewish Rebels of 66-70 C.E. According to their coins. (Michaël Girardin
(Université de Lorraine (Metz)) Can't post link as it's an automatic pdf download - but google will oblige with the article name.

In the same chapter, one finds a list of the rights, presented as excessive, of a king vis-à-
vis the people of Israel. But the people persisted. This tradition may explain why the rebels
of 66 C.E. did not pretend to appoint a king over them. The recently liberated Jews would
pretend to depend exclusively on God and to renew the Covenant concluded at Sinai.---

There is an apparent rejection of any explicit form of domination: never is
any king, any ethnarch, or any high priest mentioned on the coins. The iconography and
perhaps the legends seem equally to be a paradoxical form of Romanization.


they took him to Rome as a captive, and after being led about in the Triumph, would have been strangled or beheaded on the traditional rockface that oversaw Rome, then his body would be thrown off the cliff face. Very dramatic, I suppose.

Josephus, however, chose not to describe this part of the ritual execution of this King of the Judeans by the Romans. I think he would have to make an appearance at Titus' triumph, but he may not have had the stomach for watching or at least describing the ritual execution of one of his ethnic kin, skipping the whole affair.

I'm not so sure that Hasmonean family history has to be the driver here. It could be a new claimant. The Romans felt that appointing Judean kings or rulers was their job, once they intervened in the Hasmonean family internal dispute. The Romans at first were very lenient with the Hasmonean brothers and their kin when it came to power struggles. When Antigonus II decided to accept help from Rome's arch enemy, Parthia, this could not be forgiven, so this source dried up on its own accord. Ultimately, Herod's kin became the pool from which to appoint regional rulers over "Judean" lands.

Not everybody agreed, including Simon b Giora, and others with alternate claims.

DCH
Indeed re the Herodians. Agrippa II did of course have linkage to the Hasmoneans. Also well to keep in mind that the historian we rely on for Roman Judaea claimed Hasmonean ancestry.

Anyway, good try David - but no cigar. Antigonus II Mattathias remains the only King (and High Priest) of the Jews that was executed by the Romans.

Re: Fernando Bermejo-Rubio latest article June 2024

Posted: Sun Jul 28, 2024 3:33 pm
by DCHindley
Well, I'll have to disagree that the coins show no names or HPs etc. Some of these coins identified as those of the Judean war, IIRC, the ones that mention HPs etc, are claimed to actually be coins from earlier Hasmonean priest/kings. Or are we talking about the shekels? I was thinking of the copper/bronze money.

It's been a long while ...

DCH

Re: Fernando Bermejo-Rubio latest article June 2024

Posted: Sun Jul 28, 2024 9:44 pm
by maryhelena
DCHindley wrote: Sun Jul 28, 2024 3:33 pm Well, I'll have to disagree that the coins show no names or HPs etc. Some of these coins identified as those of the Judean war, IIRC, the ones that mention HPs etc, are claimed to actually be coins from earlier Hasmonean priest/kings. Or are we talking about the shekels? I was thinking of the copper/bronze money.

It's been a long while ...

DCH
I found a link to the article mentioned above - the pdf download is available on this webpage.

The Propaganda of the Jewish Rebels of 66-70 C.E. According to their Coins

https://ejournals.eu/czasopismo/scripta ... heir-coins

The article contains images of the coins.

Incidentally, the Maccabean rulers displayed a star on their coinage, a traditional symbol of
Davidic royalty, but this was not the case for the coins of 66-70 C.E. There is no reference
to royalty, or to high priesthood either.
It is important to notice that the high priest was, until
the revolt, a part of the elites favorable to the presence of the Romans. Moreover, Ananias
was slain in the early stage of the revolt, and according to Josephus, the new pontiff
chosen by lots in 67 C.E., Phanni, son of Samuel, was entirely ignorant of sacerdotal functions. He was used as an organ of legitimization of the Zealot faction, while not holding
any proper authority. Nothing implies the domination of one person over another, and
there is no messianic message nor any allusion to any terrestrial power on the coins of the
first Jewish war.
Herein lies a difference between these coins and those of the Hasmoneans
or those of the Bar Kokhba revolt. The apparent lack of minting authority on the coins is
remarkable. Paradoxically, the Jewish political form while at war against Rome does not
appear to be that of a proper State. It had no government, and no leader.


Re: Fernando Bermejo-Rubio latest article June 2024

Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2024 3:38 am
by DCHindley
OK, I was thinking of the coin almost universally attributed to Simon bar Kosiba and a priest Eliezar (the HP) who happened to live in the town from which SbK ran his revolt, but I keep seeing notes that this coin has been identified by one or two scholars as from 1st Revolt (Simon bar Giora & probably the Eleazar who headed the Temple Priestly faction which refused to offer the sacrifice provided by the Emperor and thus initiated the war). Levy & Madden.

Per a Whackipedia footnote: "[Overstruck Roman or local coins cannot be used to support] Madden's scheme of the "Simon" or "Eleazar" coins allegedly of the First Revolt . He notes, of course, that some of the coins of Bar Cochab "appear to have been struck from the same stamp as those of Simon son of Gioras."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Kokhb ... %20Emperor.

Hey, I thought I had trademarked "Of course ..." :problem:

I think that there is perhaps a push among Christian and Jewish scholarship to make coins conform to personal or religious agendas, and I have been very skeptical about the ability of scholars to study these things in a disengaged manner, lately. There will be exceptions, of course.(tm)

Unfortunately I lost all my digital coin books when I lost that HDD several years back. May be time to <shudder> buy </shudder> some new reference books an take a fresh look.

DCH

Re: Fernando Bermejo-Rubio latest article June 2024

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2024 11:26 pm
by maryhelena
Bermejo-Rubio has a new article on the Bible and Interpretation website:

https://bibleinterp.arizona.edu/article ... h-and-life

In answer to a question by Giuseppe, Bermejo-Rubio wrote this:

As to why we can confidently say that this apocalyptic preacher was somehow involved in anti-Roman ideology and practice (I prefer this more nuanced definition than "seditionist"), my arguments -which I deem indeed very solid and compelling- have been set forth, as you know, in many works,...

Must admit I was somewhat taken aback. Yes, I know, from his article featured in this thread, Bermejo-Rubio has complained that critics of his theory, like Jesse Nickel, focus on the use of sedition in his theory. In the article responding to Jesse Nickel, Bermejo-Rubio, labels Nickel's criticism as SJH (seditious Jesus hypothesis). But has not Bermejo-Rubio, in his articles, opened himself to 'distorting and caricaturing' of his hypothesis ?

A seditionist is one who engages in or promotes the interest of sedition. Wikipedia

Methinks, that the use of sedition in regard to the historical Jesus assumption was always going to get a backlash. Not simply because of the use of this word - but as I've posted a number of times - under Tiberius all was quite Relatively quite perhaps - but quite nevertheless in Judaea. Hence, arguments for a seditious Jesus during these years is a hard sell. (seditious elements in the gospel Jesus story are more likely to be elements of a much earlier sedition against Rome prior to Tiberius)

It does seem, from the new quote from Bermejo-Rubio, that he now wants to quieten the critics of his theory. He wants a more 'nuanced definition' of what he considers the seditionist elements in the gospel story. ''... apocalyptic preacher was somehow involved in anti-Roman ideology and practice..''

No serious scholar has ever labeled Jesus of Nazareth ‘a politically seditious
… revolutionary’, as if it were a precise definition. Since the works of Seidel
and Reimarus, every proponent of a historical reconstruction in which the
political dimension has been seriously taken into account has made clear that
the Galilean was a pious Jew and a religiously-inspired preacher, and has not
denied the fact that, according to the available sources, he was more than a
mere seditionist.
But, alas, the opponents of the hypothesis have usually
preferred to offer a cheap caricature, thereby projecting onto it the blatant
one-sidedness which characterizes the standard theological portrayal. The Nickle article linked to in this thread:

Jesus - ''more than a seditionist'. OK - but that still leave the word sedition, the concept, hanging in the air. Perhaps Bermejo-Rubio needs to look back further than the time of Tiberius and Pilate - that's if, of course, he allows history the final say on sedition under Rome and not the gospel Jesus story. The historian needs to do history. The historian should not allow assumptions of a historical Jesus under Tiberius and Pilate to hold him back from the wider historical framework in which that gospel story is just a reflection.