Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

StephenGoranson wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 2:57 pm Again.
Consider every mention of the Teacher of Righteousness and the Wicked Priest and determine the earliest that they lived.

Well (again), if the Teacher is still alive in 4Q171 and is dead in 1QpHab and CD, and if 4Q171 has a carbon dating of 6 CE to 126 CE, and if Lim dates it up to 70 CE, and if the internal data of the pesharim and CD fits the Herodian era, then I would place the Teacher and the Wicked Priest in the Herodian era.

For example, can you name any Hasmonean kings who engaged in polygamy, divorce or niece marriage (which are condemned in the DSS)? And in the case of niece marriage, it has to be more than one king, since CD 8:9-11 says, "And they take (to wife) each his brother’s daughter or his sister’s daughter. But Moses said ‘Thou shalt not approach thy mother’s sister: she is thy mother’s near kin.’ So the law of intercourse for males is written, and the same law holds for females; and let not the daughter of the brother uncover the nakedness of the brother of her father: he is near of kin"). And as Hoehner notes, "there were several uncle-niece marriages in the Herodian family."

Have you considered, for example, that 4Q171 may be a copy and that, say, the Damascus Document may be earlier?
Again, check ALL the texts that mention them, not just the one that, in your interpretation, you like.
Again, what is the EARLIEST mention of Teacher of Righteousness or Wicked Priest.
Hint: before James.

StephenGoranson wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 3:37 pm Have you considered, for example, that 4Q171 may be a copy and that, say, the Damascus Document may be earlier?
Again, check ALL the texts that mention them, not just the one that, in your interpretation, you like.
Again, what is the EARLIEST mention of Teacher of Righteousness or Wicked Priest.
Hint: before James.

All dates are estimates, even the earliest ones, and I'm open to earlier ideas if they fit the internal data. This is why I think we should focus on that, and on that front, can you (for example) name any Hasmoneans who engaged in niece marriage?

But regarding 4Q171, Tso echoes Lim's dating of up to 70 CE:

Its paleographic date of 20-70 CE, late in the existence of the community at Qumran, is confirmed by AMS tests. Therefore, 4Q171 likely attests not only to a Qumranic composition, but also one that originated from the decades around the turn of the century.


https://www.google.com/books/edition/Et ... frontcover

And in footnote 92, Tso writes that, "While arguments for the autographic status of 4Q171 are inconclusive, the absence of other copies and the relative lack of scribal errors and corrections ... does give credence to the view that 4Q171 was at least a copy of a recent composition, if not the original autograph."

So enough with the dates and let's focus on the internal data. Can you (for example) name any Hasmonean kings who engaged in niece marriage?

"So enough with the dates..."?!?!?!
No

StephenGoranson wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 4:18 pm "So enough with the dates..."?!?!?!
No

Enough with focusing on the dates when they are only estimates that can go either way one likes? Yes.

Like it or not, dating texts, by various concurrent means, is basic.

StephenGoranson wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 4:25 pm Like it or not, dating texts, by various concurrent means, is basic.

It certainly helps, but for the DSS, it can range from c. 200 BCE to c. 70 CE (and beyond), so in order to narrow down the time frame, we have to look to the internal data. And on that front, the Teacher lived in an age when (for example) the ruling kings practiced niece marriage, divorce and polygamy, things that are attested of the Herodians but not of the Hasmoneans.

No, not all Dead Sea Scrolls can each be dated at any time "from c. 200 BCE to c. 70 CE (and beyond)."
Rather, some are earlier and some are later; that is basic history work.
Nor not just all available for a speculative New Testament-reinterpreting-preference.
There are several methods to narrow dates.
C14, paleography, and the fact that text x quotes text y, among others.
To say all, or the ones you wish, could be mid first century CE is beyond arbitrary, towards nonsensical, and not given to academic norms.

StephenGoranson wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 4:53 pm No, not all Dead Sea Scrolls can each be dated at any time "from c. 200 BCE to c. 70 CE (and beyond)."
Rather, some are earlier and some are later; that is basic history work.
Nor not just all available for a speculative New Testament-reinterpreting-preference.
There are several methods to narrow dates.
C14, paleography, and the fact that text x quotes text y, among others.
To say all, or the ones you wish, could be mid first century CE is beyond arbitrary, towards nonsensical, and not given to academic norms.

I didn't say that "all the Dead Sea Scrolls can each be dated at any time 'from c. 200 BCE to c. 70 CE (and beyond),'" only that those are ranges under which they all fall somewhere within. Some might skew earlier than others, some later. But all of the texts that mention the Teacher and the Wicked Priest have ranges that go up to the Herodian era, and that is the time period that makes the most sense to me, as far as the internal data goes.

Can you just answer one question? Which Hasmonean kings engaged in divorce, polygamy or niece marriage?