Re: Mythicism and Conspiratorial Thinking Survey
Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 9:54 am
I am very much an atheist and mythicist. But I do not believe that the Christ story or the subsequent development of the religion called Christianity was to any great degree either the work of, or result of any conscious conspiracy.
Ancient peoples had ideas and beliefs as to how the world they found themselves in was formed and worked they discussed and expounded on these ideas and beliefs for thousands of years slowly building up a complex body of theological beliefs based upon their sincere convictions that what they had culturally received was in fact the way their world actually was formed and worked.
From that naturally evolving basis, sincere individuals putting two and two together, and using the natural human inclination of looking for 'patterns', extrapolated from their two plus two's and managed as it were, to come up with forty four, and having so persuaded themselves became convinced that certain other elements (events) must have taken place, whether they had been recorded or not.
Along with this and the natural human penchant for gossip, and teaching by means of story telling, religious traditions developed, were elaborated with ever more story details and taking on the appearance of being (cultural) history.
Those that were born into that cultural milieu had little reason to challenge it, and the tendency was to take what was (thought to be) the known 'facts' of life and their theology and work with them.
This is what Paul in all good conscience was doing, attempting to explain the workings of his God, and its choices and 'will', and his interpretation of Scripture and how all of this was playing out in his view of his world as he quite honestly believed it to be. Jews having been rejected, and the gentile's now the chosen recipients Divine favor.
Paul's writings were affected by the beliefs and stories of others who were before him, and subsequently the beliefs of yet others were affected by the writings of Paul.
Bit by bit, albeit it in all good conscience, the story of the Scriptural Saviour grew, expanded, and took on flesh and a life of its own.
The people hearing, inspired by, and repeating these christ Iasus story's knew no better, and quite naturally in the course of time the popular sayings and Christ vignette bits were collated and fashioned into a popular tale. No conspiracy's needed.
But once so set to writing, and the natural tendency of humans to seek for and to establish 'authority', various schools of thought and interpretation arose, became dogmatic in the defense of their views, and divided into many sectarian groups, each with their own version and selection of canon. All squabbling over how the other sect had this or that theological detail wrong and was therefore 'heretical'.
Majority (mob) rule 'catholocism' came out on top and became endorsed by the Emperor.
Now admittedly quite a bit of 'pious' forgery in names of 'apostles' and 'ancient church Fathers' was and is a fact of life, but it were not as those forgers were pulling it all out of their hats, as much of what they set down in writing was already received and believed as being historical. (just someone 'back when' had 'forgotten' to write it down at the time, or they 'did' write it down, 'but it has been lost, so we as fellow believers are fully within our rights as this brothers spiritual successors to 'restore' what we know he would have written.'
Here is a little and true story from a recent experience of mine and which has bearing here.
Taking a stroll one afternoon with my very Christian Appalachian cousin we chanced upon a huge sycamore tree, and he proceeded to relate to me the NT tale of little Zacchaeus (Luke 19) and how it was that Zacchaeus slid down from that sycamore so quick that it had peeled the bark right off, and that is why to this day sycamore trees look like they have been stripped and peeled.
I've often wondered just how old this particular folk-tale explanation is. Was it the original inspiration for that bit in Luke?
Regardless, and although his Bible never states it explicitly, my cousin, and I know not how many other thousands of his fundamentalist associates, have heard and repeat this tale, many taking it as an article of faith.
My cousin understands the workings of his faith. "In for a dime in for a dollar", it being no less incredible than the walking on water or the raising the dead.
So no I do not see any great conspiracies at work here. The formation of the stories don't require it. The power politics at work however were rife with all manner plotting and conspiracy.
I believe that down through the ages most Christian writers have been at least as sincere in their delusions, beliefs and convictions as any Christian writer or author of today.
(which is perhaps not saying much, but religious 'belief' has always been an 'it is what it is' proposition, given the politics of it, one never knows how sincere or insincere its most strident mouthpieces are being.)
Sheshbazzar
Ancient peoples had ideas and beliefs as to how the world they found themselves in was formed and worked they discussed and expounded on these ideas and beliefs for thousands of years slowly building up a complex body of theological beliefs based upon their sincere convictions that what they had culturally received was in fact the way their world actually was formed and worked.
From that naturally evolving basis, sincere individuals putting two and two together, and using the natural human inclination of looking for 'patterns', extrapolated from their two plus two's and managed as it were, to come up with forty four, and having so persuaded themselves became convinced that certain other elements (events) must have taken place, whether they had been recorded or not.
Along with this and the natural human penchant for gossip, and teaching by means of story telling, religious traditions developed, were elaborated with ever more story details and taking on the appearance of being (cultural) history.
Those that were born into that cultural milieu had little reason to challenge it, and the tendency was to take what was (thought to be) the known 'facts' of life and their theology and work with them.
This is what Paul in all good conscience was doing, attempting to explain the workings of his God, and its choices and 'will', and his interpretation of Scripture and how all of this was playing out in his view of his world as he quite honestly believed it to be. Jews having been rejected, and the gentile's now the chosen recipients Divine favor.
Paul's writings were affected by the beliefs and stories of others who were before him, and subsequently the beliefs of yet others were affected by the writings of Paul.
Bit by bit, albeit it in all good conscience, the story of the Scriptural Saviour grew, expanded, and took on flesh and a life of its own.
The people hearing, inspired by, and repeating these christ Iasus story's knew no better, and quite naturally in the course of time the popular sayings and Christ vignette bits were collated and fashioned into a popular tale. No conspiracy's needed.
But once so set to writing, and the natural tendency of humans to seek for and to establish 'authority', various schools of thought and interpretation arose, became dogmatic in the defense of their views, and divided into many sectarian groups, each with their own version and selection of canon. All squabbling over how the other sect had this or that theological detail wrong and was therefore 'heretical'.
Majority (mob) rule 'catholocism' came out on top and became endorsed by the Emperor.
Now admittedly quite a bit of 'pious' forgery in names of 'apostles' and 'ancient church Fathers' was and is a fact of life, but it were not as those forgers were pulling it all out of their hats, as much of what they set down in writing was already received and believed as being historical. (just someone 'back when' had 'forgotten' to write it down at the time, or they 'did' write it down, 'but it has been lost, so we as fellow believers are fully within our rights as this brothers spiritual successors to 'restore' what we know he would have written.'
Here is a little and true story from a recent experience of mine and which has bearing here.
Taking a stroll one afternoon with my very Christian Appalachian cousin we chanced upon a huge sycamore tree, and he proceeded to relate to me the NT tale of little Zacchaeus (Luke 19) and how it was that Zacchaeus slid down from that sycamore so quick that it had peeled the bark right off, and that is why to this day sycamore trees look like they have been stripped and peeled.
I've often wondered just how old this particular folk-tale explanation is. Was it the original inspiration for that bit in Luke?
Regardless, and although his Bible never states it explicitly, my cousin, and I know not how many other thousands of his fundamentalist associates, have heard and repeat this tale, many taking it as an article of faith.
My cousin understands the workings of his faith. "In for a dime in for a dollar", it being no less incredible than the walking on water or the raising the dead.
So no I do not see any great conspiracies at work here. The formation of the stories don't require it. The power politics at work however were rife with all manner plotting and conspiracy.
I believe that down through the ages most Christian writers have been at least as sincere in their delusions, beliefs and convictions as any Christian writer or author of today.
(which is perhaps not saying much, but religious 'belief' has always been an 'it is what it is' proposition, given the politics of it, one never knows how sincere or insincere its most strident mouthpieces are being.)
Sheshbazzar