What did "Paul" know about Jesus? Analogies and differences between Roger Parvus and Robert Price

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Giuseppe
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What did "Paul" know about Jesus? Analogies and differences between Roger Parvus and Robert Price

Post by Giuseppe »

Radical critics thought that "Paul" knew already a lost gospel that was the earliest draft of the current Canonical Gospels and *Ev.

Bob Price distances himself (very surprisingly!) from the radical critics, despite of all the debt he feels for them, by advancing that "Paul" didn't know none gospel at all, apart the vague hearsay that the supreme god (not YHWH) was appeared among the Jews as "Jesus" (meaning really that the his true name was Simon Magus).

The question "why the name Jesus?" raises the need of a previous Jewish cult of Jesus, of which the historicist origin is postulated by Roger Parvus and denied by the mythicists (together with the crucifixion, that was introduced by the Simonians). Both the historicist Parvus and the mythicists agree about this Jewish Jesus cult being co-opted by the Simonians.

It is curious that both Bob Price and Parvus go apparently against Occam.
  • The mythicist Bob Price goes apparently against Occam by postulating two distinct sects without a historical founder (respectively the Jesus cult in Judea and the cult of the Gnostic Reedemer in the Diaspora, otherwise known as Simonianism) that ended to be fused together.
  • The historicist Roger Parvus goes apparently against Occam by postulating two distinct crucifixions (respectively the Roman crucifixion of the historical Jesus and the celestial crucifixion of the Gnostic Reedemer) that ended to be confused in one. Roger Parvus would deny the evidence of a celestial crucifixion of the Gnostic Reedemer, but it is clear to me, following Bob Price, that the Simonians (and the Valentinians) came from a world of mystical speculations about the celestial dismembering of the Primal Man in heaven before the creation of the world.
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Giuseppe
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Re: What did "Paul" know about Jesus? Analogies and differences between Roger Parvus and Robert Price

Post by Giuseppe »

Resuming even more:
  • Under the historicist paradigm, the Roman crucifixion of the historical Jesus was later projected in outer space, as collateral effect of Jesus being identified by Simonians and Valentinians with the mythical Gnostic Reedemer suffering in heaven.
  • Under the mythicist paradigm, the mythical cosmic 'crucifixion' of the Gnostic Reedemer in outer space was euhemerized on the earth by the Simonians and Valentinians when they decided to co-opt the object of cult of a Joshua cult in Judea (just as they co-opted Attis and deities of other mystery religions).
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Re: What did "Paul" know about Jesus? Analogies and differences between Roger Parvus and Robert Price

Post by rgprice »

Unfortunately it is very difficult to prove much about the earliest roots of the cult. But here is what I suspect:

The symbolism preceded the name. The name is a product of numerology. This is the reason that the nomina sacra are letters written like numbers, with a line over them.

I also concur that it is likely the case that worshipers of Jesus drew from multiple cultic currents from the outset. This would be much like the origins of Kwanzaa or something.

I strongly believe that in its earliest phase the cult was seen as non-Jewish. Its likely the cult incorporated elements of Judaism but put them into a non-Jewish context, like Gnosticism. This would make sense given the role of Judaism in Gnosticism and also given "Paul's" comments about opposing the "church of God" because of his zeal for traditional Judaism.

What orthodox Christians have long imagined is that the Jewish establishment was so strongly opposed to Jesus that "good Jews" like Paul would have viewed Jesus and any followers of his as "outlaws" who deserved the most violent and extreme opposition.

But it is highly unbelievable. Rather, when Paul talks about his opposition to the "church of God" and trying to "destroy it", it sounds a hell of a lot more like Paul is talking about a foreign cult, like a Roman cult, that is being imposed upon Judea, OR that he is talking about something like Gnosticism, which is declaring a higher God that is going to overthrow the God of Moses.

Philippians 3:
2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of those who mutilate the flesh! 3 For it is we who are the circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and boast in Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh— 4 even though I, too, have reason for confidence in the flesh.

If anyone else has reason to be confident in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, a member of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless.

7 Yet whatever gains I had, these I have come to regard as loss because of Christ. 8 More than that, I regard everything as loss because of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things, and I regard them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law but one that comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God based on faith.

The fact that Paul lists his persecution of "the church" as proof of his standing as a Jew indicates that this is something that would have been seen by all Jews as something easily recognizable as a sign that he was a "good Jew".

This "church" or assembly, has to have been something so well known that many Jews were opposed to it. This sounds to me a lot like a Roman religious movement or cult, which would have been opposed by Jewish zealots opposed to the occupation. And certainly, such a cult could have been Gnostic in nature, claiming that a higher God was going to overthrow the God of the Jews.

Even if one assumes that there was some real Jewish Jesus who was executed under Pilate and that this figure was some sort of popular leader, such a Jewish Jesus, according to orthodox sources, was at best some kind of Jewish reformer, of which there had been many. There is no indications that this reformer was so well known that sometime in the 30s or 40s CE a "church" had already been well established following his death and that this "church" was so infamous that typical Jews would have recognized working to "destroy" this movement as a mark of being a Jew in good standing.

No, being a "zealous Jew" meant being opposed to the Roman occupation. Thus, whatever Paul was talking about had something to do with the Roman occupation. Certainly, being opposed to a movement that was aligned with Rome would have been seen as being a sign of a Jew in good standing, and/or being opposed to a cult which claimed that a higher God was going to underthrow the God of the Jews.

As for debate about whether Jesus was foretold by the Jewish prophets, this could well have been a long standing point of contention, given the nature of the Jewish scriptures, which are themselves highly critical of Jewish leadership.
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Giuseppe
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Re: What did "Paul" know about Jesus? Analogies and differences between Roger Parvus and Robert Price

Post by Giuseppe »

rgprice wrote: Mon Aug 12, 2024 12:51 pm when Paul talks about

Paul is talking about

The fact that Paul lists

whatever Paul was talking about
Talking about Paul as a real guy writing before the 70 is not more interesting than reading a second time OHJ by Richard Carrier.

I am comparing in this thread two authors who place the 'epistles' in the second century, courtesy of the Simon's/Cerdon's/Marcion's/Valentinus's school.
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Re: What did "Paul" know about Jesus? Analogies and differences between Roger Parvus and Robert Price

Post by rgprice »

Giuseppe wrote: Tue Aug 13, 2024 6:39 am
rgprice wrote: Mon Aug 12, 2024 12:51 pm when Paul talks about

Paul is talking about

The fact that Paul lists

whatever Paul was talking about
Talking about Paul as a real guy writing before the 70 is not more interesting than reading a second time OHJ by Richard Carrier.

I am comparing in this thread two authors who place the 'epistles' in the second century, courtesy of the Simon's/Cerdon's/Marcion's/Valentinus's school.
Perhaps, but there is nothing to say that the same doesn't apply to a later period. Whether Paul was real or not, and whether a real Paul was active in the first or second century, the same holds true. The remarks about wanting to destroy the "church of God" due to being a "zealous Jew" indicates that the writer of the letter was framing the "church of God" as a foreign/non-Jewish cult.

This indicates that the "church of God" was likely Roman and/or Gnostic in origin, with the letter writer framing the issue as Judaism vs "Otherism". Paul, originally a "zealous Jew", converted to the foreign religion.
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Re: What did "Paul" know about Jesus? Analogies and differences between Roger Parvus and Robert Price

Post by Giuseppe »

rgprice wrote: Tue Aug 13, 2024 7:33 am The remarks about wanting to destroy the "church of God" due to being a "zealous Jew"
Usually the radical critics omitted that detail as a Catholic interpolation, hence not relative to the core of the 'epistles'. For example, so the Van Manen's reconstruction of Galatians.
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