Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

StephenGoranson wrote: ↑Sat Aug 17, 2024 12:56 pm What does "the younger sort" have to do with the Teacher of Righteousness?

Good question. I hadn't thought of that. Nothing, I guess. But there are other reasons to see the Teacher as a Fourth Philosopher, and there are reasons to see Jesus as one. It's a matter of overlap, then.

The Teacher pre-dated the Fourth Philosophy.

John2 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 17, 2024 12:22 pm

AdamKvanta wrote: ↑Sat Aug 17, 2024 8:30 am I'd like to add another hypothesis, just for fun:

John the Baptist = Teacher of Righteousness
Herod Antipas = Wicked Priest

Why not? Lay it out for me.

I'll try. If the "root of planting" was Judas and Zaddok, twenty years later (when the Teacher arose) would coincide with John the Baptist's life, so that would work for me. But Herod Antipas wasn't a priest, was he? So that one doesn't work for me.

StephenGoranson wrote: ↑Sat Aug 17, 2024 11:59 am John2 avoids chronology
maryhelena avoids Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic
That's entertainment?

Stephen, Is it really necessary to broadcast my language limitations ?

StephenGoranson wrote: ↑Sat Aug 17, 2024 1:23 pm The Teacher pre-dated the Fourth Philosophy.

Maybe. I allow for that possibility. But on that front, I've been pointing out on your thread my issues with your idea that the Teacher was Judas the Essene and the Wicked Priest was Jannaeus. Figurative drunkenness vs. literal drunkenness, the meaning of machalim and the lack of any reference to angels being the cause of them, and the meaning of osei ha-torah in 1QpHab; that the Teacher and the Wicked Priest aren't mentioned in the one text that clearly identifies Jannaeus (or any text that mentions Salome Alexandra), and the Wicked Priest being said to have "ruled over Israel" being a normal way to express the job of a High Priest, as per Josephus' description of Ananus, rather than being an indication that he was a military or political ruler.

Jannaeus (Yannai) proclaimed himself, including on coins, for example, as King, as well as High Priest--a controversial decision to claim both offices, some thought.
Though Jannaeus may well be the Lion of Wrath of 88 BCE crucifixions, he isn't explicitly named as Jannaeus there.
Judah the Essene, the Teacher of Righteousness, might not have been mentioned in the fragment remains about 88 BCE, maybe because he was already dead.

StephenGoranson wrote: ↑Sat Aug 17, 2024 1:49 pm Jannaeus (Yannai) proclaimed himself, including on coins, for example, as King, as well as High Priest--a controversial decision to claim both offices, some thought.
Though Jannaeus may well be the Lion of Wrath of 88 BCE crucifixions, he isn't explicitly named as Jannaeus there.

But it matches Josephus' account of Jannaeus. Without Josephus it wouldn't be clear, but having Josephus makes it so.

Judah the Essene, the Teacher of Righteousness, might not have been mentioned in the fragment remains about 88 BCE, maybe because he was already dead.

Maybe so. But Josephus doesn't say when or how he died, so it is only a supposition.

Though I agree that Jannaeus in 88 BCE was that mentioned "Lion"--a wicked priest indeed--that does nothing to connect Jesus as the Qumran Teacher, and, in fact, speaks against it, as Jannaeus and Jesus were never contemporaries.

StephenGoranson wrote: ↑Sat Aug 17, 2024 2:15 pm Though I agree that Jannaeus in 88 BCE was that mentioned "Lion"--a wicked priest indeed--that does nothing to connect Jesus as the Qumran Teacher, and, in fact, speaks against it, as Jannaeus and Jesus were never contemporaries.

To me it indicates that the Teacher and the Wicked Priest had nothing to do with Jannaeus. Maybe they were dead by the time 1QpNah was written, or maybe they existed after that time. The internal data of the DSS suggests the latter to me, given that the Teacher espoused Fourth Philosophic views (opposition to the oral Torah, fervent messianism, and belief in "Pharisaic notions," like resurrection of the dead). According to Josephus, this convergence of ideas didn't exist until the first century CE. They are what made the Fourth Philosophy distinct from the other sects.

John2 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 17, 2024 1:24 pm

John2 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 17, 2024 12:22 pm

AdamKvanta wrote: ↑Sat Aug 17, 2024 8:30 am I'd like to add another hypothesis, just for fun:

John the Baptist = Teacher of Righteousness
Herod Antipas = Wicked Priest

Why not? Lay it out for me.

I'll try. If the "root of planting" was Judas and Zaddok, twenty years later (when the Teacher arose) would coincide with John the Baptist's life, so that would work for me. But Herod Antipas wasn't a priest, was he? So that one doesn't work for me.

Yeah, you are probably right.