Was Jesus the Teacher of Righteousness?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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maryhelena
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Re: Was Jesus the Teacher of Righteousness?

Post by maryhelena »

AdamKvanta wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2024 9:50 pm
John2 wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2024 1:24 pm
John2 wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2024 12:22 pm
AdamKvanta wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2024 8:30 am I'd like to add another hypothesis, just for fun:

John the Baptist = Teacher of Righteousness
Herod Antipas = Wicked Priest

Why not? Lay it out for me.

I'll try. If the "root of planting" was Judas and Zaddok, twenty years later (when the Teacher arose) would coincide with John the Baptist's life, so that would work for me. But Herod Antipas wasn't a priest, was he? So that one doesn't work for me.
Yeah, you are probably right.
Why not give this theory a look:

"Allusions to the End of the Hasmonean Dynasty in Pesher Nahum (4Q169)"


https://www.academia.edu/12144236/_Allu ... Q169_2011_

OK - I'll run now before Stephen gets besides himself over my posts.... ;)
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spin
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Re: Was Jesus the Teacher of Righteousness?

Post by spin »

The Damascus Document, which is a source of information regarding the Teacher of Righteousness, has been carbon-dated to 100-50BCE.
StephenGoranson
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Re: Was Jesus the Teacher of Righteousness?

Post by StephenGoranson »

I agree with spin that the Damascus Document is reliably dated to before the first century CE.
John2
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Re: Was Jesus the Teacher of Righteousness?

Post by John2 »

My understanding is that carbon dates are estimates, as explained here:

These 14C ages [of the DSS] show us that the radiometric dating method itself has significant uncertainty. In most cases, 14C dating has ± 100-year uncertainty range, a handicap similar to paleographic dating. Popular media reporting rarely mentions this uncertainty. Instead, reports often provide a single date written with three significant figures, without explaining that this number is the average of the actual century-or-more date range.

With the Bar Kochba documents above, the situation is even worse, as some of the 14C dates (columns 2–4) are over a century off from their written date (column 5). Aside from possible contamination, a known contributing problem here is that this time period is in a large plateau region of the 14C calibration curve. As the earlier article explained, 14C levels fluctuate in the atmosphere, which affects the initial (and thus final) 14C present in the sample. In the graph below (based on the 2013 calibration curve), there is a long plateau between about 130 AD and 240 AD (shown as a gray box), which gives a century of “error” in this period. (This is why radiocarbon dating the John Rylands P52 papyrus, the earliest preserved copy of the Gospel of John, would not resolve the controversy surrounding its estimated 100–150 AD paleographic date. Because of this plateau, radiocarbon dating cannot resolve whether P52 is a second- or third-century document.) ...

But as techniques have improved in both fields, recent work is more encouraging: Josephine Dru reports that when done with care, 14C and paleographical dates agree roughly 80% of the time. Thus, 14C methods can easily help us identify forgeries, and can help us affirm the ancient and pre-Christian origin of critical biblical manuscripts. However, the plateaus, potential contamination, and overall uncertainty range in the method give scholars plenty to discuss and debate. And as both 14C and paleographic analysis techniques continue to improve, hopefully the agreement and consensus among scholars will continue to grow.


https://reasons.org/explore/blogs/voice ... lls-part-2



I call these methods that "give scholars plenty to discuss and debate" the dating game, and I take Lim's advice in the face of this that arguments should be based on the content of the DSS.
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Re: Was Jesus the Teacher of Righteousness?

Post by StephenGoranson »

Lim did not write that the "content"--interpretation--is the only criterion.
Your "interpretation" is excluded.
John2
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Re: Was Jesus the Teacher of Righteousness?

Post by John2 »

StephenGoranson wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2024 2:57 pm Lim did not write that the "content"--interpretation--is the only criterion.
Your "interpretation" is excluded.

I didn't say that interpreting the content of the DSS is the only criterion, only that in the face of the dates for the DSS being estimates (as Lim notes), we need to base our arguments (whether for Hasmonean or Herodian times) on what the DSS say, and your idea doesn't do that to my satisfaction, for the reasons I've been posting here and on your thread, which you've yet to address.
John2
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Re: Was Jesus the Teacher of Righteousness?

Post by John2 »

While I don;t think Fourth Philosophers were the only Jews to ever go out into the wilderness, this is another similarity that Fourth Philosophers, Jesus and the Teacher share. It appears to have been a "thing" in the first century CE. Yes, other Jews have gone out into the wilderness, from Elijah to Judas Maccabee, people who needed to "get away" from society, since Israel began.

But Jospehus says that Essenes lived in cities ("They have no one certain city, but many of them dwell in every city ... in every city where they live ... [they] betake themselves to their labors again till the evening; then they return home to supper"). And an Essene connection to Qumran isn't certiain, as Shanks discusses here:

Most scholars agree that the word “Essene” does not appear in the scrolls.1 Nor does any inscription from the site say that it is an Essene settlement.a The Essenes are known chiefly from the writings of two first-century C.E. Jewish writers, the historian Josephus and the philosopher Philo of Alexandria. Neither indicates that the Essenes have a home in the desert, however; on the contrary, the Essenes are described as living in many villages and towns of Judea. The only reference to Essenes living in the desert comes from the first-century C.E. Roman encyclopedist Pliny the Elder ...

Pliny actually tells us where we can find these desert hermits: “Then below this [tribe] is Ein Gedi” (infra hos Engada).b Is Pliny locating the Essenes at Qumran, north of Ein Gedi? Many scholars think he is, but it all depends on the meaning of a single Latin word, infra. Those who believe Pliny was referring to Qumran argue that infra hos means “south of this”—surely, Ein Gedi, a Jewish settlement in the valley by the Dead Sea, is south of Qumran.

Other scholars, however, emphasize that maps in the ancient world did not have north at the top, as our maps do. They had east at the top. The famous Madaba map, with its well-known map of Jerusalem, is an example.c Hirschfeld agrees that if Ein Gedi is “below” the Essene community, north (Qumran) is not the direction to look. In fact, says Hirschfeld, when Pliny says “below this,” that’s exactly what he means—at a lower level. The site Pliny is referring to, argues Hirschfeld, would be found up the slope, above Ein Gedi.

But, according to Hirschfeld, there’s another, even more fundamental reason why Qumran can’t be Pliny’s Essene community. The site was not a community of desert ascetics at all, he argues, but the manor house of a large agricultural estate. As such, “Qumran is not a unique site,” says Hirschfeld (emphasis in original). “It is part of a pattern of settlement characteristic of Judea from the first century B.C.E. through the first century C.E. … It was part of a kingdom-wide phenomenon.”


https://library.biblicalarchaeology.org ... ot-qumran/

In any event, there are no references to Essene teachers having a "thing" for going out in to the wilderness in the first century CE. As Shanks notes:

Josephus himself spent three years in the desert in the company of a hermit. His mentor there, a certain Bannus, is described as an ascetic who ate wild plants, dressed in tree bark and immersed himself frequently in cold water. Despite his similarity to the Essenes, however, we cannot include Bannus among them, as Josephus relates that he joined Bannus after he had studied the way of life of the Essenes, implying a distinction between them.

But Josephus notes that going out into the wilderness was a "thing" for Fourth Philosophers:

There was also another body of wicked men gotten together, not so impure in their actions, but more wicked in their intentions, which laid waste the happy state of the city no less than did these murderers. These were such men as deceived and deluded the people under pretense of divine inspiration, but were for procuring innovations and changes of the government; and these prevailed with the multitude to act like madmen, and went before them into the wilderness, as pretending that God would there show them the signals of liberty.



This is like the Teacher's followers in the DSS, who "departed from the land of Judah" to go out into the wilderness of Damascus (perhaps in emulation of Elijah in 1 Kings 19:15: "Then the Lord told him, 'Go back the same way you came, and travel to the wilderness of Damascus'"; and CD changes Amos 5:27 from being exiled "beyond Damascus" to "to Damascus" to fit this meaning).

And Jesus follows this pattern too, by going out into the wilderness at the beginning of his ministry and then taking his disciples out to "desolate" places (e.g., Mk. 8:4 and 6:35, "And his disciples answered him, 'How can one feed these people with bread here in this desolate place?'"; "And when it grew late, his disciples came to him and said, “This is a desolate place, and the hour is now late").

eremos

deserted, desolate, waste; hence: the desert, to the east and south of Palestine;


https://biblehub.com/greek/2048.htm



So to me, this is just another example of Jesus and the Teacher sounding like Fourth Philosophic kooks who took their followers out into the wilderness "under pretense of divine inspiration," which Josephus notes was a "thing" during the first century CE.
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Re: Was Jesus the Teacher of Righteousness?

Post by StephenGoranson »

Dio also mentioned Essenes by the Dead Sea.
John2
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Re: Was Jesus the Teacher of Righteousness?

Post by John2 »

StephenGoranson wrote: Sat Aug 24, 2024 3:19 pm Dio also mentioned Essenes by the Dead Sea.

Can you cite him? I haven't been able to find anything. Pliny and Solinus mention Essenes (cited here: https://www.philipharland.com/Blog/2022 ... entury-ce/), but I can't find anything by Dio. I'm curious to see where he locates them by the Dead Sea (if so), since to my eyes Pliny places them by Ein Gedi and Masada, not at Qumran.

And both of them say that the Essenes by the Dead Sea had no women, but women were found in the Qumran graves, and Wassen has written a book about women in the Damascus Document. As she writes in the introduction, "It addresses issues of the role, status, and participation of women in the community behind the text, as well as the attitude towards women that the text reflects."


https://www.google.com/books/edition/Wo ... frontcover


And while there were some Essenes who married, Pliny and Solinus say that the Essenes who lived by the Dead Sea had "no women among them," so if Essenes wrote CD, they were not the kind of Essenes who lived by the Dead Sea. And Wasson also notes how CD shows that some of the sect worked and participated in society, unlike the Essenes by the Dead Sea, who are said to "have no money, and they only have palm-trees as companions." So these kinds of Essenes don't fit the writings of the Teacher's followers. If the Teacher was an Essene, he was a different kind of Essene than the kind that lived by the Dead Sea.
StephenGoranson
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Re: Was Jesus the Teacher of Righteousness?

Post by StephenGoranson »

Dio 3, 2 by Synesius of Cyrene.
Available, Greek and English, in The Essenes According to the Classical Sources, G. Vermes and M. Goodman (Sheffield, 1989) 58-59.
A longer Greek quotation in Antike Berichte über die Essener, A. Adam und C. Burchard (2nd ed., Berlin, 1972) 39-40 and bibliography section.
Cf. Adam Kamesar, review of Vermes in JAOS 111 (1991) 134-5.
Also discussed in publications (as a source separate from Pliny) by Joan E. Taylor.
Maybe Dio got it from Posidonius or Strabo, I suggest.
Also:
Rereading Pliny...
https://orion.huji.ac.il/symposiums/pro ... on98.shtml
with some updating in:
https://people.duke.edu/~goranson/jannaeus.pdf
especially note 31.
Posidonius, Strabo and Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa as sources on Essenes. Journal of Jewish Studies 45,2 (1994) 295-298
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