Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

Posted: **Sun Aug 18, 2024 9:55 am**

In 1 John 4 we read:

1 John 4:
1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come ¹ in the flesh is from God; 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is ² not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming ³, and now it is already in the world.

From Strong's: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_john/4.htm

¹ ἐληλυθότα
² ἐληλυθότα⧽
³ ἔρχεται

Is there any case to be made that this text does say, or at one time did say:

1 John 4:
1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ is coming in the flesh is from God; 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is coming is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.

There are many aspects of material around John that indicate John was preaching a Jesus who was to come. Now, it also makes sense that if John was preaching the coming of a messiah, then John would be talking about the coming of a figure in the flesh. Thus, I can see how there was a John who was preaching the coming of a future messiah in the flesh, and that this John taught a baptism for the remission of sins in anticipation of his coming.

Note 1 John 2:

28 Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming ⁴. 29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.

⁴ παρουσίᾳ

Of course this is often explained by the concept of a "second coming", but it seems to me that the idea of a "second coming" is a later concept that was introduced to explain the many early Christian texts that anticipate a coming of Jesus. The writing of the Gospels introduced the idea that had already come to earth, and thus letters attributed to apostles that talked about Jesus to earth in the future had to be reinterpreted as talking about a "return" of Jesus.

So the question is, can passages like 1 John 4:2 be interpreted as talking about a coming of Jesus in the future, or would such a proposition require appeals to interpolation?

Posted: **Mon Aug 19, 2024 12:59 am**

Compare the following statement from 2 Thessalonians 2 to 1 John:

2 Thessalonians 2:
1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? 6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

1 John 2:
15 Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world. 17 The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.

...

25 This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. 27 As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

28 Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming. 29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.

1 John 3:
1 See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. 7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared "was revealed" [ἐφανερώθη] for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 4:
1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. 4 You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. 5 They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

There are some strikingly similar concepts here about the antichrist/man of lawlessness and the "coming" of Christ who will defeat him. But there are also some major points of confusion.

2 Thess plainly anticipates a coming of Jesus Christ in the future. 1 John also anticipates Jesus coming in the future. 1 John 3 says that the world did not know God. Sounds an awfully lot like Marcionism. But 1 john 3:8b says that Jesus "was revealed", in the past tense. The world used here is ἐφανερώθη.

Clearly "revealed" is not the same as "has come". This still actually sounds an awfully lot like Marcionism. Up to this point in 1 John it sounds like the writer is saying that the Son of God has been "revealed" to them through some mystical process, and that they have "gained knowledge" of his crucifixion.

Then we read in 1 John 4 that Jesus Christ "has come in the flesh". This to me now sounds entirely out of place. This is not anticipated by the preceding content of the letter. The preceding content of the letter has talked about knowledge of Jesus Christ having been revealed to the writer in anticipation of his coming. But 1 John 4 says that he has already come in the flesh and now antichrists are coming after him. This makes no sense.

As in 2 Thess, 1 John has already established the idea that Jesus Christ in coming in order to defeat "the man of lawlessness" i.e. the antichrists. So again I think that this is supposed to be talking about the coming of Jesus Christ in the future. That Jesus Christ is going to come in the flesh in order to defeat the antichrists who are now coming into the world. The antichrists come first, then Christ comes to defeat them.

That antichrists would come after Christ had come makes no sense. Of course later theologians reconcile all of this with the concept of the "second coming", but nothing in these works ever talks about a "return" of Jesus or Jesus "coming back". There is primarily an anticipation of coming in the future, there is mention of the Son of God having been "revealed", and then there are also these few confusing statements about Jesus already having come.

My conclusion is either that these mentions of Jesus having already come are either misinterpreted or they are later alterations.

Posted: **Mon Aug 19, 2024 4:20 pm**

rgprice wrote: ↑Sun Aug 18, 2024 9:55 am
1 John 4:1-2:

1 ... test the spirits to see whether they are from God ... 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ is coming in the flesh is from God ...

There are many aspects of material around John that indicate John was preaching a Jesus who [is] to come. Now, it also makes sense that, if John was preaching the coming of a messiah, then John would be talking about the coming of a figure in the flesh. Thus, I can see how there was a John who was preaching the coming of a future messiah in the flesh, and that this John taught a baptism for the remission of sins in anticipation of his coming.

Note 1 John 2:28-9:

28 Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming.⁴ 29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.

⁴ παρουσίᾳ

Of course this is often explained by the concept of a "second coming", but it seems to me that the idea of a "second coming" is a later concept that was introduced to explain the many early Christian texts that anticipate a coming of Jesus. The writing of the Gospels introduced the idea that had already come to earth, and thus letters attributed to apostles that talked about Jesus to earth in the future had to be reinterpreted as talking about a "return" of Jesus.

So the question is, can passages like 1 John 4:2 be interpreted as talking about a coming of Jesus in the future, or would such a proposition require appeals to interpolation?

I have the same sense of aspects of the Pauline letters primarily talking about the future coming of Christ or Jesus or Christ Jesus

And I'm intrigued about Paul taking about mysteries to be or being revealed (on more than one occasion)

rgprice wrote: ↑Mon Aug 19, 2024 12:59 am
2 Thessalonians 2:

1 ... with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him ...

There are some strikingly similar concepts here about the antichrist/man of lawlessness and the "coming" of Christ who will defeat him. But there are also some major points of confusion.

2 Thess plainly anticipates a coming of Jesus Christ in the future. 1 John also anticipates Jesus coming in the future. 1 John 3 says that the world did not know God. Sounds an awfully lot like Marcionism. But 1 John 3:8b says that Jesus "was revealed", in the past tense. The world used here is ἐφανερώθη.

Clearly "revealed" is not the same as "has come". This still actually sounds an awfully lot like Marcionism. Up to this point in 1 John it sounds like the writer is saying that the Son of God has been "revealed" to them through some mystical process, and that they have "gained knowledge" of [him, such as] his crucifixion.

Then we read in 1 John 4 that Jesus Christ "has come in the flesh". This to me now sounds entirely out of place. This is not anticipated by the preceding content of the letter. The preceding content of the letter has talked about knowledge of Jesus Christ having been revealed to the writer in anticipation of his coming. But 1 John 4 says that he has already come in the flesh and now antichrists are coming after him. This makes no sense.

As in 2 Thess, 1 John has already established the idea that Jesus Christ in coming in order to defeat "the man of lawlessness" i.e. the antichrists. So, again, I think that this is supposed to be talking about the coming of Jesus Christ in the future. That Jesus Christ is going to come in the flesh in order to defeat the antichrists who are now coming into the world. The antichrists come first, then Christ comes to defeat them.

That antichrists would come after Christ had come makes no sense. Of course later theologians reconcile all of this with the concept of the "second coming", but nothing in these works ever talks about a "return" of Jesus or Jesus "coming back". There is primarily an anticipation of coming in the future, there is mention of the Son of God having been "revealed", and then there are also these few confusing statements about Jesus already having come.

My conclusion is either that these mentions of Jesus having already come are either misinterpreted or they are later alterations.

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