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Re: Steve Mason, 'An Act of Unparalleled Scribal Audacity'

Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2024 11:45 am
by maryhelena
StephenGoranson wrote: Thu Aug 22, 2024 11:11 am Mary
Minor point: "Your just being silly," in generally-accepted proper English would be written "You're just being silly," though many people don't care; I understand.
Major point: You urged a distinction between you and Ken in which you asserted that you were the as-it-were pure historian, which did imply (to this reader) that, rhetorically, you considered yourself, of the two, not distracted by Greek, the more reliable truth-seeker.
To which I reply: no.
Let both hypotheses be tested.

PS "Goodness"...etc.
As far as I know, neither of those two options--others are available- are yet proven.
Read into my words as you like, Stephen. I've better things to do than discuss English gammar with you. While you may fault my grammar continually... Let me just say I fault your bad manners in publicly doing so.

Re: Steve Mason, 'An Act of Unparalleled Scribal Audacity'

Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2024 4:27 pm
by Secret Alias
Does anyone like each other on this forum past the Duke alumni? This place has always seemed like Sartre's Huis Clos. Can we just keep the hate directed at one person, me for instance. I don't feel as special when I see everyone hating on each other.

Re: Steve Mason, 'An Act of Unparalleled Scribal Audacity'

Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2024 4:43 pm
by DCHindley
Back a while, while researching the history of the emperors of the Roman "tetrarchy" (a fourfold division into two halves, each with a north & a south district), established as the new Roman command structure by top dog emperor Diocletian. Each one had emperors of various ranks among one another.

Christians had been granted limited legitimacy by Diocletian around 305, just before he retired. All the Augustii and Caesarii that made up that system, immediately started to push for regional dominance.

Some of these four emperors were not fans of Christianity, including Maximin Daia of Asia Minor (SW corner of tetrarchy). They pushed back and some started to persecute them again. The tetrarchs were not fans of one another either, although managed to push their boundaries of control over territory (sometimes violating the agreement in part), yet preserve the principals of Diocletian's tetrarchy and respect each other's rank within in the system - to a degree.

Christians were caught in the middle. Eusebius was a Bishop in Maximin Daia's corner of the empire. He was likely under threat from the emperor while writing Church History. However, he did throw his backing behind one of the regional Augustii, Constantine. Constantine was in control of NE corner of empire, then eventually the eastern half in full.

As far as I know Eusebius was never in Rome (he was aware that churches were long established there). Eusebius was based in Caesarea and kept (or had access to) a very good library. There were copies of Josephus' works there, perhaps some coming from Josephus' own library, containing marginal notes. This is like 300 years from the original dates of publication, so no I do not think they were in as general circulation as some suppose.

Eusebius may have sent one set to Constantine, perhaps to complain how bad the Acts of Pilate & Jesus makes Christians look, and maybe C even requested a copy so he could look into the matter. Constantine's mother was said to have been a Christian, so he had developed some contacts within the Christian movement, and had tried to counteract some of the persecutions ordered by his colleagues. This would be the origin of the revised edition of Josephus' works that washed away the negative Jesus story.

What I think might have happened was that in his struggles with his colleagues, Constantine sought Christian support. Supporters of Maximin Daia had published what they claimed were private diaries of Pilate and even of Jesus, dated to 19 CE or close thereto, in which Jesus is portrayed as a rebel leader. There may also have been things cited from Josephus that closely matched this account, at the time. IF MH wants to link the accounts of Jesus being arrested, let go and then rearrested to be executed, to some ancient text, maybe it was not the Aramaic language Capture of Jerusalem Josephus claims to have published in Mesopotamia to deter Parthian based Judean support for rebels still active in Judea, could it not then be from these Acts of Pilate & Jesus? The "Christian" additions in Slavonic Josephus is possibly "Christianized" version of the Acts of Pilate & Jesus.

What I believe Constantine decided to do is to publish a new edition of Josephus' works that sanitized whatever was in Antiquities that supported Maximin Daia's supporters publication, and then altered the text to hide this fact by making Pilate assume power in 26 CE, well past the date of Jesus' execution in Maximin's Acts of Pilate and Jesus. He effectively sanitized Josephus to absolve Christians of any guilt charged by the Acts of Pilate & Jesus. Eusebius points to the fact that in the copy of Josephus he had (received as a gift from Constantine?) the text did not support the earlier date. However, he admits that not everybody agreed that the edition Eusebius preferred was accurate.

Constantine did win in the end, assuming full command everywhere. Bye bye tetrarchy. Bye bye Acts of Pilate & Jesus. So, it may not have been Eusebius, but partisans of Constantine, who added the "Christian" statements about figures in Christian gospels to "balance" things. That they don't look like "Christian" interpolations or glosses, is because they were written by copywriters working for Constantine, whose knowledge of Christianity and its key figures was second hand through his mother.

DCH

Re: Steve Mason, 'An Act of Unparalleled Scribal Audacity'

Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2024 7:43 pm
by Secret Alias
Nice post.

Re: Steve Mason, 'An Act of Unparalleled Scribal Audacity'

Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2024 11:01 pm
by maryhelena
Ken Olson wrote: Thu Aug 22, 2024 5:58 am Steve Mason, probably the most prominent living Josephus scholar, wrote about the Testimonium Flavianum:

First, one example that has previously been discussed on this forum, is from Daniel Schwartz, who has argued that the chronological data on the length of the terms of Gratus and Pilate in Antiquities 18.35 and 18.89, which contradict his theory that Pilate was governor of Judea in 19 CE, is the product of Christian interpolation:

Josephus mentions, in his Antiquities, twelve Roman governors of Judea, and
three others in his War, but it is only regarding Gratus and Pilate that he states (in
our two passages in Ant. 18 – §§ 35, 89) how long they served. That makes these data
suspicious,
and since they apply to the governors of Judea in the most interesting
period of Judean history in the eyes of Josephus’ Christian copyists, it is not difficult
to suspect that some well-meaning copyist attempted to make Josephus more specific
than he really was
[Schwartz, Reading the First Century, 141].

I think Schwartz is probably wrong in thinking that Ant. 18.35 and 89 are Christian interpolations, but nonetheless Schwartz suspects it, and Mason accepts Schwartz's case for dating Pilate as governor of Judea in 19 CE.
Actually, Daniel Schwartz does not say the chronological data for Gratus and Pilate was a christian interpolation. All he does is remark on the fact that the chronological data is suspicious. That leave the question of the chronological data open. Yes, as noted in previous posts, Schwartz has prioritized the narrative data over the chronological date. I have suggested that a way around this problem is to view the chronological data as not being sequential - either for one or for both of the two governors of Judaea. But to ignore Schwartz's argument for a 19 c.e. date for Pilate is to ignore the narrative data.

Schwartz makes an interesting point over the Acts of Pilate and it's 21 c.e. dating.

Suspicions, however, are not the same as conclusions.
What is important, in the present context, is that such suspicions as these should
send us off to do three things: (1) to see if there is any other evidence, in Josephus,
for placing Pilate’s appointment to office around 19 CE; (2) to see if there is any other
evidence, outside of Josephus, for things changing in Judea around 19 CE;
and (3) to see whether there was any good reason for a copyist of Josephus
to want to make Pilate begin governing later than he really did. These all
prove to be fruitful.

(1) The first question immediately directs our attention to the fact that
Josephus begins his account of Pilate’s service as governor, in Antiquities
18.55, right after referring to the murder of Germanicus (Tiberius’ nephew,
Claudius’ brother), which occurred in 19 CE (§ 54).77 This suggests that
Josephus thought that is when Pilate entered into office. In fact, since the
appointment of Pilate was mentioned in § 35 but the account of his tenure
begins only in § 55 it sounds like the reader is meant to imagine Pilate
traveling from Rome to Judea around the same time as the events recounted in
between 78 – which culminate, as stated, with Germanicus’ death in 19 CE.

(2) The second question leads us to ask what else was happening in our
region in 19 CE, and that takes us directly to a Tacitean passage concerning
17 CE (Annals 2.42.5 – GLA no. 283) where we read of complaints, by the
inhabitants of Judea and Syria, about the high tribute they were required to
pay. Tacitus does not say how the complaint was handled, but since Ger-
manicus’ mission to the East, which began in 17 CE, was intended to deal
with various disputes and complaints that had arisen around the Roman
East,79 the Judeans’ complaints could well have been on his agenda.
Switching governors is always a way of mollifying provincials.80

(3) The third question, whether any copyists had anything to gain by
making Pilate’s career begin later than it really did, has led scholars to
notice, and to bring into the present discussion, the fact that the Church
father Eusebius reports in his Church History (Book 1, Ch. 9) that there
was circulating, in his day (the early fourth century), an anti-Christian text
purporting, so it seems, to be Pilate’s report to Tiberius about the case of
Jesus. Eusebius argues that those so-called Acta Pilati must be false since
they date the report to Tiberius’ fourth consulate, which came in 21 CE –
five years before Pilate in fact entered into office, according to Josephus.
However, since it is difficult to believe that forgers of such Acta Pilati would
choose a date so easily refutable on the basis of the main relevant source,
it
may well be that their copy of Antiquities did not include the chronological
data in Antiquities 18.35, 89. The fact that Eusebius read the Testimonium
Flavianum in his copy of Antiquities, whereas a century earlier Origen
apparently did not, makes it all the more likely that also the chronological data
in Eusebius’ copy of Josephus, and hence in our texts, were the contribution
of creative Christian copyists.
81

We could, and elsewhere have, delve more into the ins and outs of this
type of argument.82 In the present context, where the focus is upon
methodology, suffice it to say that it was only by rubbing Tacitus against Josephus
that we began to notice such things as the lack of proportion between
Josephus’ account of Gratus’ tenure and the length he ascribes it, the unique
status of Josephus’ chronological data for just these two governors, the
juxtaposition of Germanicus’ death and Pilate’s entrance into office, the
open question as to what Rome did about the Judean and Syrian complaints
Tacitus reported for 17 CE, and Eusebius’ report about the false Acta Pilati.
That is quite a lot of leads, and some meaningful results, stemming from the
comparison of two texts.
==========
81 On the Testimonium Flavianum debate, see P. Winter in HJP 1.428–441 (432 on
Origen); Mason, JNT, 163–183; and Whealey (n. 60) – where pp. 12–29 are on Origen and
Eusebius. Daniel Schwartz, Reading the First Century,

Yes, Schwartz has questioned the chronological date for Gratus and Pilate - and indeed that question needs to be asked. Schwartz says 'more likely' that ''contribution of creative Christian copyists'' could be involved - in the numerical date problem. Suggesting that such a christian contribution might have it's own christian purpose. Schwartz makes no reference the TF itself being a whole-cloth Eusebius interpolation. He referenced Winter, Mason and Whealey.

As to the consensus dating of Pilate to 26 c.e. Schwartz makes a point regarding the dating of Jews being expelled from Rome i.e. the year Germanicus died, 19 c.e. - as detailed in Annals 2.85. If Pilate is dated to 26 c.e. then the Jews were not expelled from Rome during Pilate's term of office in Judaea. Consequently, Schwartz is here referencing Tacitus in support of the Josephus connection between dating the expelling of the Jews from Rome - in the time of Pilate. Hence, the 19 c.e. Antiquities date for Pilate - the time of the death of Germanicus and the time when some Jews were expelled from Rome.

But there does seem to be a major discrepancy between the two writers concerning
the chronology of the events in question, for while both put them in the
days of Tiberius (who ruled 14–37 CE), Tacitus – by his references to consuls 75 –
clearly places the events in 19 CE while Josephus, after beginning his account
of Pontius Pilate, including his first two clashes with the Jews and
then the Testimonium Flavianum, introduces these Roman stories by saying
they happened “at the same time.” According to the usual reconstruction
of events, Pilate was governor of Judea for a decade beginning in 26 CE, so
Josephus seems to have dated these events in Rome at least 6–7 years later
than Tacitus did. Daniel Schwartz, Reading the First Century,

Where does all this leave the TF - it leaves it where it is found - within a context of 19 c.e. Yep, argue that it should not be there, argue that the Jews, under Pilate, were expelled from Rome somewhere around or post 26 c.e. - and argue that Luke trumps Josephus - all for what? To save the TF from Josephus by advocating Eusebius did a whole cloth interpolation - albeit he played 'eyes closed pin the tail on the donkey'. ....

Re: Steve Mason, 'An Act of Unparalleled Scribal Audacity'

Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2024 11:51 pm
by maryhelena
Just as an aside:

(b) Deliberate misplacement? A second approach to the discrepancy
between dating the Roman events to 19 CE and Josephus’ placing them in the
framework of Pilate’s tenure admits that Josephus’ arrangement is wrong,
chronologically, and suggests that, if not simply due to error, it may have
derived from Josephus’ desire to juxtapose the Roman scandals to his account
of Jesus, which had to come in the chapter about Pilate. In particular,
it has been suggested that since the first Roman story is about the way
some villains took advantage of a naïve Roman lady by letting her think her
sexual partner was a god, Josephus – it has been suggested – juxtaposed it
with the Testimonium Flavianum in order to make fun of the belief in the
virgin birth.83 However, as things stand the Testimonium is very positive
about Jesus but makes no mention of the notions that Jesus’ father was
God or his mother a virgin. Moreover, this type of hypothesis entails the
additional notions that (1) the Testimonium was originally negative and
(2) the beliefs about Jesus’ father and mother were current early enough for
Josephus to mock them. The former issue would take us to such points as
the fact, noticed above (n. 60), that § 65 seems to indicate that the
Testimonium, which immediately precedes it, reported some sort of tumult, as well
as other evidence concerning the text of the Testimonium; the latter issue
would take us into New Testament scholarship and its attempts to trace the
development of the beliefs in question,84 a development that was part and
parcel of the transformation of a national savior (“Son of David”) into a
universal one (“Son of God”). Thus, just as the preceding hypothesis took
us both into the Josephan context and, eventually, to Tacitus and Eusebius,
the present one would take us into the Josephan context and, eventually, to
the New Testament. Daniel Schwartz. Reading the First Century

And that really is the issue with all of this - the New Testament - the gospel Jesus story and whether one views that story as referencing, behind all the supernatural bits, a historical Jesus, and those who have an ahistorical view of the gospel Jesus story ie. Jesus as a literary construct. If one argues for a historical Jesus (of whatever variant) then one could be up in arms over the placing of the TF in 19 c.e. as it questions the Lukan narrative. If on the other hand, one argues for Jesus as a literary construct then one would approach the Josephan dating of the TF with an altogether different mindset. In the latter case one deals with a narrative - and therefore one has an open source approach to ones investigation. In the case of a historical Jesus - well then - one is bound to, in this case, the Lukan narrative and it's chronology.

Re: Steve Mason, 'An Act of Unparalleled Scribal Audacity'

Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2024 6:43 am
by Mrvegas
Ken Olson wrote: Thu Aug 22, 2024 5:58 am I have argued instead that it is more likely that Eusebius composed the text himself for use in his own work and it was only later carried over into the manuscripts of the Antiquities:
On the Eusebian TF forgery theory, one question that I have is this: wouldn't Eusebius have been concerned about getting caught and called out for this? Jerome and Rufinus had a well-documented and bitter argument accusing each other of mistranslating Origen. I believe that Rufinus also mentioned that Origen had to fight against alterations and forgeries of his own work during his own lifetime. While this demonstrates that texts did get altered, it also demonstrates that people did actually get caught doing it sometimes. Also, Eusebius had his enemies, and even after his death, he was somewhat suspect doctrinally (Arianism, and Origenism if I remember correctly.)

Maybe you have addressed this elsewhere, but I don't think I saw it in your 1999 article. It's just an honest question – would someone in Eusebius' position have taken that chance? It seems to have been an accepted practice for ancient historians to put speeches in people's mouths (e.g., the speech of Licinius), and even “improving” texts. However, I'm not sure Eusebius would have gotten away with wholesale forgery in the 4th century. He was a prominent person, with enemies, and by the 4th century we start to get (comparatively) a lot more documentation. At least I think he would have been worried about it.

Re: Steve Mason, 'An Act of Unparalleled Scribal Audacity'

Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2024 1:53 pm
by maryhelena
Mrvegas wrote: Sat Aug 24, 2024 6:43 am
Ken Olson wrote: Thu Aug 22, 2024 5:58 am I have argued instead that it is more likely that Eusebius composed the text himself for use in his own work and it was only later carried over into the manuscripts of the Antiquities:
On the Eusebian TF forgery theory, one question that I have is this: wouldn't Eusebius have been concerned about getting caught and called out for this? Jerome and Rufinus had a well-documented and bitter argument accusing each other of mistranslating Origen. I believe that Rufinus also mentioned that Origen had to fight against alterations and forgeries of his own work during his own lifetime. While this demonstrates that texts did get altered, it also demonstrates that people did actually get caught doing it sometimes. Also, Eusebius had his enemies, and even after his death, he was somewhat suspect doctrinally (Arianism, and Origenism if I remember correctly.)

Maybe you have addressed this elsewhere, but I don't think I saw it in your 1999 article. It's just an honest question – would someone in Eusebius' position have taken that chance? It seems to have been an accepted practice for ancient historians to put speeches in people's mouths (e.g., the speech of Licinius), and even “improving” texts. However, I'm not sure Eusebius would have gotten away with wholesale forgery in the 4th century. He was a prominent person, with enemies, and by the 4th century we start to get (comparatively) a lot more documentation. At least I think he would have been worried about it.
Eusebius didn't take a chance if he never did it...nothing therefore for anyone to complain about....

The problem for Eusebius was the dating of the passion in the Acts of Pilate. Eusebius says that Pilate was not in Judaea in the 7th year of Tiberius. End of story - Acts of Pilate a forgery. But of course it's not the end of the story. The Eusebius theory has Eusebius placing the TF within a context of 19 c.e - in a context that he has just said Pilate was not in Judaea early in the time of Tiberius.

Matthew's gospel has a chronology, re Herod. Mark and John have no detailed chronology. Luke comes along with a specific chronology. Was Luke's chronology accepted without confusion - all onboard for the new update. The Acts of Pilate at least demonstrated that some people might have had issues with the Lukan chronology. That the Acts of Pilate contained, re Eusebius, things that one could take exception to, does not take away it's dating structure.

What Eusebius has attempted to do is what Ken has tried to do - remove the TF from its 19 c.e. context. Can't be done if Josephus put it there - but by labeling that early in the time of Tiberius TF (or passion story re Acts of Pilate) a forgery, Eusebius attempts to solve the problem. Surely, then, he is not going to undo his great forgery charge by interpolating a TF early in the time of Tiberius. Eusebius had other options for interpolating a TF - perhaps prior to or after the death of Philip the Tetrarch. That Eusebius did not do so indicates that the TF is where we find it today - still causing problems. In actuality, what Eusebius has done is to give the OK to reject the early in the time of Tiberius TF - it's OK to reject it's context in 19 c.e. - it's OK to mentally remove it -because after all, that early in Tiberius context is, for the TF, a forgery. Controversy contained, Eusebius has given his blessing - just remember to ignore the context.

Re: Steve Mason, 'An Act of Unparalleled Scribal Audacity'

Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2024 3:02 pm
by Ken Olson
maryhelena wrote: Sat Aug 24, 2024 1:53 pm The problem for Eusebius was the dating of the passion in the Acts of Pilate. Eusebius says that Pilate was not in Judaea in the 7th year of Tiberius. End of story - Acts of Pilate a forgery. But of course it's not the end of the story. The Eusebius theory has Eusebius placing the TF within a context of 19 c.e - in a context that he has just said Pilate was not in Judaea early in the time of Tiberius.
*Sigh*

This is getting old and I imagine people are getting tired of hearing from both MaryHelena and me on this issue, but just in case there is someone who doesn't know this:

The number of published scholars who share MaryHelena's opinion that the Testimonium is set in 19 CE is, to the best of my knowledge, zero.

MaryHelena's claim is based on her unshakeable belief that since the date of the expulsion of the Jews from Rome narrated in Ant. 18.81-84, occurred in 19 CE and the Testimonium is narrated earlier in the text of the Antiquities, the events narrated in it it must necessarily have occurred earlier. The vast majority of scholars think the date of Pilate's governorship was c. 26 CE to 36 CE and hold that the narrative order of Josephus' text is not always the chronological order and that Josephus has placed the expulsion of the Jews where it is for topical rather than chronological reasons.

Mary Helena has pointed to one scholar, Daniel Schwartz, who has suggested that Pilate's governorship began in 19 CE. Schwartz is certainly a competent scholar, but I think he is probably wrong, and he has not yet managed to convince the majority of his peers. But it is important to note that he also thinks that the two events in Rome narrated in Ant. 18.65-84 are placed there for topical rather than chronological reasons and that one should not infer that the events narrated as taking place in Ant 18.55-64 took place before the events narrated in 18.65-84. That is MaryHelena's own idiosyncratic claim.
What Eusebius has attempted to do is what Ken has tried to do - remove the TF from its 19 c.e. context. \
Again, to the best of my knowledge, no scholar who has published on the Testimonium shares MaryHelena's opinion that the Testimonium is set in 19 CE.

Best,

Ken

Re: Steve Mason, 'An Act of Unparalleled Scribal Audacity'

Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2024 10:45 pm
by maryhelena
Ken Olson wrote: Sat Aug 24, 2024 3:02 pm
maryhelena wrote: Sat Aug 24, 2024 1:53 pm The problem for Eusebius was the dating of the passion in the Acts of Pilate. Eusebius says that Pilate was not in Judaea in the 7th year of Tiberius. End of story - Acts of Pilate a forgery. But of course it's not the end of the story. The Eusebius theory has Eusebius placing the TF within a context of 19 c.e - in a context that he has just said Pilate was not in Judaea early in the time of Tiberius.
*Sigh*

This is getting old and I imagine people are getting tired of hearing from both MaryHelena and me on this issue, but just in case there is someone who doesn't know this:

The number of published scholars who share MaryHelena's opinion that the Testimonium is set in 19 CE is, to the best of my knowledge, zero.

MaryHelena's claim is based on her unshakeable belief that since the date of the expulsion of the Jews from Rome narrated in Ant. 18.81-84, occurred in 19 CE and the Testimonium is narrated earlier in the text of the Antiquities, the events narrated in it it must necessarily have occurred earlier. The vast majority of scholars think the date of Pilate's governorship was c. 26 CE to 36 CE and hold that the narrative order of Josephus' text is not always the chronological order and that Josephus has placed the expulsion of the Jews where it is for topical rather than chronological reasons.

Mary Helena has pointed to one scholar, Daniel Schwartz, who has suggested the that Pilate's governorship began in 19 CE. Schwartz is certainly a competent scholar, but I think he is probably wrong, and he has not yet managed to convince the majority of his peers. But it is important to note that he also thinks that the two events in Rome narrated in Ant. 18.65-84 are placed there for topical rather than chronological reasons and that one should not infer that the events narrated as taking place in Ant 18.55-64 took place before the events narrated in 18.65-84. That is MaryHelena's own idiosyncratic claim.
What Eusebius has attempted to do is what Ken has tried to do - remove the TF from its 19 c.e. context. \
Again, to the best of my knowledge, no scholar who has published on the Testimonium shares MaryHelena's opinion that the Testimonium is set in 19 CE.

Best,

Ken
I'd like to remind anyone interested in the TF that Ken Olson's Eusebius theory has been rejected by, seemingly, the majority, of TF scholars:

''...Carleton Paget and Alice Whealey had already responded to Olson's argument, rejecting its arguments and conclusion''. Wikipedia here Ken's paper of 1999 being referenced and it looks as though the consensus position on the TF still stands - rejection of a whole cloth Eusebius interpolation. Upholding a partial TF from Josephus is the opinion of the majority of TF scholars

That a nobody on the internet is challenging Ken's position is obviously going to get a negative response from him. I'm aware of his vested interest in the TF - and hence take his objections to my position with a grain of salt.

The major issue for Ken is not what Josephus did or did not do within his Antiquities context of 19 c.e. The issue is what his Eusebius theory upholds i.e. the TF is a whole cloth Eusebius forgery that Eusebius placed within the Antiquities - and we find that alleged forged TF within a context of 19 c.e.

Now, Ken can stand on his head all day long, he can shout the odds, he can continue to not only criticise my posts but also attempt to denigrate me personally. (I am denigrating your reading comprehension and your ability to understand, and make, rational arguments.)

Ken seeks to knock, to reject the arguments of two prominent Josephan scholars (Daniel Schwartz on early dating for Pilate and Steve Mason on the alleged Eusebius whole cloth interpolation) Ken's view on the TF is a minority view. It faces an uphill battle in the great TF debate.

My advice to Ken is leave well alone - if I am wrong so be it. The real issue here is why on earth a NT scholar is seeking to continually denigrate a view that challenges his own, vested interest, position. Scholarship must surely always remain open-minded - even when challenged on the internet. Surely, a scholar will look at a contrary view - decide there is nothing in it - and leave it to it's own fate. That Ken can't do this is truly sad.