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Re: Two different theories explain better the origin of the Myth of Jesus

Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2024 9:25 am
by Peter Kirby
Giuseppe wrote: Thu Sep 12, 2024 7:19 am this is a clear misunderstanding of the my real point.
Giuseppe wrote: Thu Sep 12, 2024 7:19 am What view would you call most a mythicist view, then?
You have rapidly cycled through several different points, or expressions of points, in this thread.

(a) the OP - "inclined to support the first view rather than the second view, because we have another example of a figure who was developed out of a previous deity: Muhammad"
(b) excluding the historicity of Jesus rather than allowing its possibility was "A reason to support the second view rather than the first view"
(c) " a historical Jesus ... is equivalent to ... appeal to the hypothesis of a god creator ... a deus ex machina. It reveals only the own ignorance, a reluctant confession of it"

Perhaps this is your point (b) stated differently:
Giuseppe wrote: Thu Sep 12, 2024 7:19 am A mythicist theory is worthy of the name only if it excludes entirely a historical Jesus.
But if mythicism is compatible with both views, then there is a mythicist theory (at least one) corresponding to each of these two views.

One weird thing about the points made in this thread is that nowhere has the idea of historical evidence entered into it, apart from an adamant insistence on its absence relative to a historical Jesus. It started with an analogy to "the best mythicist" view about Muhammad, as if an analogy showed anything and as if such a view about Muhammad is in any way cogent because it is "the best mythicist" view. Then it moved on to the idea that one of the views was better at being mythicist than the other because it entirely excluded a historical Jesus, making it somehow a better view therefore because it's more properly called mythicist. Then there was something about how a historical Jesus would be an appeal to ignorance of the god-of-the-gaps kind, as if historical human beings weren't ordinary participants in historical events that existed in the millions and therefore entirely appropriate within the normal course of understanding and explaining history naturalistically.

What went wrong, where pursuing mythicist theories became an end in itself?

Re: Two different theories explain better the origin of the Myth of Jesus

Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2024 9:35 am
by StephenGoranson
Up-thread, Wed Sep 11, 2024 2:29 pm, Peter Kirby asked Giuseppe,
"What are you calling "a reason" here?"

I may be mistaken, but my first interpretation was:
G. was shopping around for what suits his wishes.

Re: Two different theories explain better the origin of the Myth of Jesus

Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2024 10:27 am
by Giuseppe
Peter Kirby wrote: Thu Sep 12, 2024 9:25 amThen it moved on to the idea that one of the views was better at being mythicist than the other because it entirely excluded a historical Jesus, making it somehow a better view therefore because it's more properly called mythicist.
correct. A better view insofar it is more defensible than the other from the threat of agnosticism.

Re: Two different theories explain better the origin of the Myth of Jesus

Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2024 3:51 pm
by dbz
Giuseppe wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2024 8:33 am
  • The view that, given a sect raising Moses to archangelic heights for the his role in Exodus, another sect raised Joshua to archangelic heights as superior to Moses (=the Law).
If Second Temple period cultic worship of the high priest is possble, then also possible, is another sect raising Joshua to archangelic heights as superior to Moses (=the Law).
Philo tells us (repeatedly) that this [celestial] creature is also God’s high priest.
--Carrier (22 January 2023). "Chrissy Hansen on the Pre-Existent Jesus". Richard Carrier Blogs.
Second Temple texts in which it appears both Adam and the high priest are objects of
such worship. (p. 18)
Wilhite, David E.; Winn, Adam (2024). "Israel's Lord: YHWH as "Two Powers" in Second Temple Literature". Rowman & Littlefield.