Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

Secret Alias wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2024 12:34 pm Where did Epiphanius's knowledge about what the Marcionites said about each of these passages come from? This couldn't have been gleaned from a mere Marcionite New Testament canon.

Peter Kirby wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2024 10:48 am

Secret Alias wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2024 10:10 am And what is Epiphanius gathering anyway? It's like (a) citation (b) demonstration that even Marcion's gospel is orthodox. It's fucking bizarre. It's Irenaeus "I will demonstrate the orthodoxness of the Marcionite gospel from the portions of Luke he retains"

Secret Alias wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2024 10:29 am I think I've finally clarified the problem that's been nagging me about this whole issue, and it's like watching a detective show unfold. To believe that Irenaeus, Tertullian, and Epiphanius were independent witnesses of the same canon, you'd have to accept that three separate developments of the same strategy—arguing against Marcion to prove that his gospel is still orthodox—happened naturally and independently. That this approach was commonplace and nothing out of the ordinary.

Peter Kirby wrote: ↑Wed Jun 21, 2023 1:34 pm I would think that Epiphanius was consulting earlier anti-heretical works when writing Panarion, including his section on Marcionites, and not limited to Irenaeus. I agree that Epiphanius has knowledge of Irenaeus. It's difficult to say if he has knowledge of the Against Marcion of Irenaeus, but it's possible. All of this is to say that influence of earlier anti-heretical tracts on the elenchi, the explanations, does not imply that Epiphanius was copying the scholia, the notes that were made earlier, from anyone else. To have used other work for the elenchi is consistent with what Epiphanius said he was doing.

Peter Kirby wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2024 12:19 pm

Peter Kirby wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2024 12:12 pm

Secret Alias wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2024 12:11 pm Epiphanius just gathered up various editions of Adversus Marcionem that were lying around in antiquity and copied their arguments.

So your theory is that there were editions of Adversus Marcionem that had all the quotes attributed to Marcionite texts found in Epiphanius and somehow, for some bizarre and perverse reason of his own, Tertullian never saw fit to quote one of them [the quotes].

You're not going to respond to this?

Peter Kirby wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2024 12:29 pm

Secret Alias wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2024 12:25 pm

So your theory is that there were editions of Adversus Marcionem that had all the quotes attributed to Marcionite texts found in Epiphanius and somehow, for some bizarre and perverse reason of his own, Tertullian never saw fit to quote one of them

I am not understanding.

Tertullian (and Epiphanius) knew the work of Irenaeus.

Tertullian never makes a specific quote from the texts of Marcion's canon.

Epiphanius makes many specific quotes of the texts of Marcion's canon.

Your previously proposed explanation: Epiphanius copied these out of an edition of Irenaeus.

What's strange: why would Tertullian pass over all the quotes which Epiphanius gathers?

The obvious explanation: Epiphanius had sourced the quotes from the Marcionite texts, as claimed.

Secret Alias wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2024 12:43 pm Epiphanius culled two sources, likely the two versions of Adversus Haereses that Tertullian already witnesses in 220 CE to make this pamphlet or which someone made for him.

Peter Kirby wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2024 12:31 pm

Secret Alias wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2024 12:25 pm Epiphanius is citing one or two of Tertullian's sources

So you're saying Tertullian just bizarrely passes over all the quotes that Epiphanius knows without giving any of them in the Latin text.