Beliefs in Ghosts in Second Temple Judaism

[neilgodfrey]

I'm posting this here rather than in Jewish Texts because of its implication for interpreting the "Easter/resurrection experience of the disciples after Jesus' burial.

We read much about demons and spirits in relation to Second Temple Jews but what do we know about beliefs in ghosts in the everyday sense of a ghost of the dead?

In Acts we read about Peter's angel but that's not the same thing. We read about Samuel's ghost being called up by the witch of Endor, but I can't think of any other instance of a ghost.

Thanks to Diogenes for bringing this problem to my attention with his theory of necromancy in another topic. I started to follow it up but see my book on necromancy covers the Greco-Roman world but not Jews specifically.

[outhouse]

but what do we know about beliefs in ghosts in the everyday sense of a ghost of the dead?

.

They did not view this anything like Casper.




Im running with confusion over natural events, death, illness, and disease. But primarily, they believed they effected conscious thought and personality of the living, as well as interpreted them In dreams, and day dreams, and visions.

Spirits and demons were real to them, just as they are to those ignorant and weak minded or easily impressionable .

[Garon]

Modern hospice workers report seeing "spirits or ghosts," recognized by the one dying to be loved ones who is have died coming into the room of the dying person. Maybe some should simply go to the local hospice and ask the workers there who has experienced the sightings?

[outhouse]

Modern hospice workers report seeing "spirits or ghosts," recognized by the one dying to be loved ones who is dying while in their care. Maybe some should simply go to the local hospice and ask the workers there who has experienced the sightings?

Ghost and spirits do not exist scientifically, and only reflect how weak the human mind actually is.


The point of the OP is to discover how the people of the temple period viewed this mythology, this is not about your mythical reality.

[Garon]

Then like I said, go ask hospice workers who had the phenomena happen to then.

[outhouse]

Then like I said, go ask hospice workers who had the phenomena happen to then.

That has nothing at all to do with social and cultural anthropology of the temple period.

Most hospice workers, and religious, meaning biased, and are factually not a credible source of information here.

[Garon]

Go ask some.

[outhouse]

Go ask some.

I did, just got off the phone, they said your full of it.

Never seen anything of the sort.



Provide credible sources.

[Garon]

That's your standard answer to everyone n the forum.

[Charles Wilson]

We read much about demons and spirits in relation to Second Temple Jews but what do we know about beliefs in ghosts in the everyday sense of a ghost of the dead?

Hello Neil--

Very good question. I'll step up and give an answer if no one else will. Part of the answer that you touch on is the status of Consciousness and there was evidently some Status given to Ecclesiastes and the difference between Israel and the pagans.

Ecclesiastes 9: 4 - 6 (RSV):

[4] But he who is joined with all the living has hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
[5] For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward; but the memory of them is lost.
[6] Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and they have no more for ever any share in all that is done under the sun.

Genesis 3: 19 (RSV):

[19] In the sweat of your face
you shall eat bread
till you return to the ground,
for out of it you were taken;
you are dust,
and to dust you shall return."

No "ghosts" here. As we move to the Second Temple and beyond, a few points. Uzi Leibner, in Settlement and History in Hellenistic, Roman, and Byzantine Galilee, ISBN 978-3-16-149871-8, states that the Hasmoneans were very much attached to the Temple and the Priesthood and its System. Queen Salome, after the death of Jannaeus, gave the Citadels and "Strong Places" to the survivors of Jannaeus' 6 years in the mountains. Jannaeus and his followers had suffered a huge defeat at the hands of Demetrius Eucerus (Let the reader note this). I have stated that the "Great Tribulation" was centered on Jannaeus and his followers who, after nearly dying of heat, thirst and starvation finally came down from the mountains to defeat the opposition and take Jerusalem. I believe that the view of the Pentateuch and the Teaching that derived from this held sway over these Hasmoneans.

There was no Book of Plato to be found here either.

So it is of great interest to get to Mark 6: 47 - 50 (Moffatt):

[47] Now when evening came, the boat was far out in the middle of the sea and he was on the land alone;
[48] but when he saw them buffeted as they rowed (for the wind was against them), he went to them about the fourth watch of the night, walking on the sea. He would have passed them by,
[49] but when they saw him walking on the sea, they thought it was a ghost and shrieked aloud - for they all saw him and were terrified.

I've stated before that there is a PhD Thesis coming out of this one Story. Let's see why:

Symbolism is a personal kind of thing here but I do believe that this is a Story centered around the Temple, with Antonia doing Symbolic Duty as the "Boat". Your mileage may vary but look at the explanatory power here. The Tableau is that this "Jesus" (A Priest in the Original...) is between the Temple and Antonia when the terrible storm arises. This is the Temple Slaughter at Passover and the Priest is caught outside. He is to face certain death. There is No Way Out. He is trying to find some way - any way - into the safety of Antonia.

The Original - or is it a rewrite?:
1. He goes to them.
2. It is the "Fourth Watch".
3. "He would have passed them by..."
4. "They thought it was a ghost and shrieked aloud..."

1. Antonia was a Citadel and I assert that it is a Symbol for the "Boat" of the early Markan Miracle Stories. Antonia was surrounded by a "ditch" and the use of the word "sea" reflects this and also the great numbers of people who worship around the Temple. YMMV.

2. Here is where it gets interesting: "Fourth Watch" is a Roman Term. There were 3 watches in the Jewish Tradition, 4 in the Roman. This is not in the least convincing to Apologists but it is True nonetheless. This Story has Roman Approval and is hardly noticed in Rome and surrounds.

3. "He would have passed them by..." is intriguing as "Jesus" sees some sort of trouble on shore but "would have passed them by" when He "Walks" to them. Something is missing here and it is the Key to seeing that this Story was rewritten from other Material.

4. "They thought it was a ghost and shrieked aloud..." Does this testify to there being ghosts? No, not in the least. It is evidence that the author(s) are rewriting from their backgrounds, a pagan background where belief in ghosts was part and parcel of what they believed. The verse is telling us that those in Antonia were looking at the DEATH around them and thought that everyone - EVERYONE! - was already dead or hacked to bits. How do we know?

Matthew 14: 28 - 30 (RSV):

[28] And Peter answered him, "Lord, if it is you, bid me come to you on the water."
[29] He said, "Come." So Peter got out of the boat and walked on the water and came to Jesus;
[30] but when he saw the wind, he was afraid, and beginning to sink he cried out, "Lord, save me."

This is a Story about Peter, who lives in "Upper Galilee". He comes into the carnage surrounding Antonia and saves the Priest. "The Priest would have walked on by...". That is, there were those who saw him and called to him and he did not see them. How do we know?

Matthew 25: 10 - 13 (RSV):

[10] And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast; and the door was shut.
[11] Afterward the other maidens came also, saying, `Lord, lord, open to us.'
[12] But he replied, `Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.'
[13] Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.

Wars..., 2, 1, 3:

"...so he [[Archelaus]] sent his whole army upon them, the footmen in great multitudes, by the way of the city, and the horsemen by the way of the plain, who, falling upon them on the sudden, as they were offering their sacrifices, destroyed about three thousand of them; but the rest of the multitude were dispersed upon the adjoining mountains: these were followed by Archelaus's heralds, who commanded every one to retire to their own homes, whither they all went, and left the festival.

The decision to murder the worshipers was made quickly, with no warning.
How do we know that the Priest was saved?

Luke 13: 23 - 25 (RSV):

[23] And some one said to him, "Lord, will those who are saved be few?" And he said to them,
[24] "Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
[25] When once the householder has risen up and shut the door, you will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, `Lord, open to us.' He will answer you, `I do not know where you come from.'

Matthew 18: 1 - 4 (RSV):

[1] At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"
[2] And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them,
[3] and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
[4] Whoever humbles himself like this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

The Original had nothing to do with "ghosts" as ghosts were in no way a part of the Worship around the Temple or of the Priests or of the Hasomoneans. Any argument for "ghosts" comes from the Platonists who had already convinced the Romans, who needed no real convincing in that respect. "Why do you think that the Priestly Group and the Hasmoneans fought so hard against the Hellenism?"

CW