in defence of astrotheology

[Charles Wilson]

Deuteronomy 17: 2 - 5 (RSV):

[2] "If there is found among you, within any of your towns which the LORD your God gives you, a man or woman who does what is evil in the sight of the LORD your God, in transgressing his covenant,
[3] and has gone and served other gods and worshiped them, or the sun or the moon or any of the host of heaven, which I have forbidden,
[4] and it is told you and you hear of it; then you shall inquire diligently, and if it is true and certain that such an abominable thing has been done in Israel,
[5] then you shall bring forth to your gates that man or woman who has done this evil thing, and you shall stone that man or woman to death with stones.

Pretty much sums up THAT idea, not that it matters...

CW

[MrMacSon]

Deuteronomy 17: 2 - 5 (RSV):

[2] "If there is found among you ... a man or woman who ...
[3] ... has gone and served other gods and worshiped them, or the sun or the moon or any of the host of heaven, which I have forbidden,

[5] then you shall bring forth to your gates that man or woman who has done this evil thing, and you shall stone that man or woman to death with stones.

Enough of a thing when Deuteronomy was written

• "Since the evidence was first put forward by W.M.L de Wette in 1805, scholars have accepted that the core of Deuteronomy was composed in Jerusalem in the 7th century BC in the context of religious reforms advanced by King Josiah (reigned 641–609 BC).[10]"
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_De ... on_history
  
  "The assumption that the book was composed under Hezekiah, Manasseh, or Josiah is based on the hypothesis that the law-book which was discovered in the Temple by the priest Hilkiah in the eighteenth year of the reign of King Josiah, 621 B.C."
  http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/artic ... y#anchor18

though

• "Deuteronomy was written around 1406 BC, at the end of the forty years of wandering endured by the nation of Israel."
  http://www.insight.org/resources/bible/deuteronomy.html

[Charles Wilson]

Yes, and we know roughly when the Garden of Eden was written, after "Asherah, Consort of El" had become a mere totem in Israel, when the God was one and "He" walked with the humans.
The use of "Signs in the Heavens" became a use of OBJECTS for calculating calendars and therefore the "Worship" of those objects, as with statues, was forbidden. It doesn't matter the "Age" of the Laws, they were from God and that was what mattered.

The Transvaluation continues...

CW

[MrMacSon]

"Scientists have discovered that an ancient Roman fort/castle built by Emperor Hadrian in the second century AD/CE near Hardknott Pass in Cumbria, England, is aligned astronomically to the winter and summer solstices. Physicist Amelia Carolina Sparavigna of the Polytechnic University of Turin “used online software and satellite imagery to calculate the angles at which the solstice sun rises and sets at the fort.” In her analysis, Sparavigna determined that 'during the summer solstice, the sun would rise in rough alignment with the fort’s northeastern and southwestern gates, and set in alignment with its northwestern and southeastern gates.'

"Furthermore, the southeastern and northwestern gates were built to align with the sunrise at the winter solstice, while its southwestern and northeastern portals mark the sunset during that time. Also, 'the four towers of the garrison seem aligned to cardinal directions'.”

http://astrotheology.net/roman-castle-i ... inter-sun/

and

As we know well, numerous other sites globally are aligned to astronomical milestones such as those of the sun, moon, Venus and others. These sites include “several Roman towns in Italy that have alignments with the solstice sun,” as well as the North African town of Timgad, which is “aligned with the direction of the sunrise on the birthday of the Roman Emperor Trajan, who reigned from A.D. 98 to 117.”

http://astrotheology.net/roman-castle-i ... inter-sun/

[Robert Tulip]

The comments of some contributors to this thread are amusing, with their oblivity towards facts. Investigation of how the ancients discussed precession of the equinox is not comparable to young earth creationism, scientology, Lemuria or breathairianism, despite some of the more lurid suggestions in such directions.

There is a wonderful series of five books by the Nobel Laureate Doris Lessing called Canopus in Argos. It is a satire about current culture, using the science fiction device of long term visits to a planet very like ours by aliens from the Canopus star system. These wise old beings are alarmed about the risk that humanity will not cross the threshold of intelligence into sustained civilization, but they see non-interference as a core principle.

One problem described in Shikasta, the first book of Lessing’s quintet, is that people are banned from looking at the sky, and if they do, they are forced to wear a heavy halter as punishment, making them look at the ground. This image is intended as a critique of the loss of knowledge of the stars of the night sky in our world, and a wry observation that our society has become largely bereft of connection to nature.

I see this as highly relevant to this analysis of astral themes in the Bible. For example, no one here has asked why I said the Tree of Life is a symbol for the zodiac. Unfortunately, to understand this similarity, you actually have to look at the sky, even if doing so makes you shudder along Deuteronomic lines.

Revelation 22:2 provides a highly cryptic image: “On each side of the river of life stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month.” Now we all know there is no such thing as a tree growing on both sides of a river. However, if we look at the night sky, we can readily see the Milky Way Galaxy as a vast circle like a great river. The visible galaxy intersects another circle, the star path of the sun, which traditionally has twelve constellations, one for each month, with six on one side of the cosmic river and six on the other side.

There is a direct simple obvious meaningful necessary correlation between the Biblical description of the tree of life and the visible stars of the zodiac. But to see it you have to know what the stars of the zodiac look like. That unfortunately is an immense stumbling block for our deastralised culture. By contrast in the ancient world the visible stars were their equivalent of My Kitchen Rules on television, so their star stories were part of common pop culture. That unfortunately is no longer the case, making it very hard for us to reconstruct the ancient worldviews that informed the Bible.

[Stephan Huller]

I love it when the defender of astrotheology has 25 opportunities to actually produce supportive evidence from antiquity - and each time finds a new way to say effectively, evidence isn't what is needed. Instead we just gotta believe!

[Peter Kirby]

Apparently Revelation uses some astral themes.

[neilgodfrey]

Revelation 22:2 provides a highly cryptic image: “On each side of the river of life stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month.” Now we all know there is no such thing as a tree growing on both sides of a river. However, if we look at the night sky, we can readily see the Milky Way Galaxy as a vast circle like a great river. The visible galaxy intersects another circle, the star path of the sun, which traditionally has twelve constellations, one for each month, with six on one side of the cosmic river and six on the other side.

There is a direct simple obvious meaningful necessary correlation between the Biblical description of the tree of life and the visible stars of the zodiac.

It's probably out of order to mention that the same passage in Revelation says there is no night sky and there is no sun there either.

And many would say that the same passage is describing a situation that is yet future and will not appear until after this earth is burnt up and ceases to exist and there is no more Satan to bother anyone!

The river also consists of waters of life, a detail left unexplained by astrotheology.

Perhaps one might be justified in thinking of Jesus speaking of waters of life gushing forth from his belly -- like the manneken pis.

This way we maintain the image of Revelation of the Tree of Life straddling the river. (Atrotheology has to dispense with this image as Robert explains above.) The image I propose as the alternative to astrotheology also has the advantage of maintaining the Revelation narrative of the river emanating from the Temple: we know the Body is the Temple.

mannekenPis.jpg (7.71 KiB) Viewed 9066 times

And recall the gospels and other passages in the Bible compare people with trees. So don't we have here in Revelation 22 the symbolic (and secret) symbolism of Jesus (his body is the tree) either side of the river of life (gushing from his middle parts) with the even division of 6 parts either side (foot, leg, torso, arm, shoulder, ear) giving life to all who touch him or drink from the waters of life. Or some might prefer the more conventional though layout of the zodiacal signs, six on each side, in the ancient medical books:

220px-Zodiac_man_1702.png (83.12 KiB) Viewed 9066 times

I hereby denounce the heresy of astrotheology and call people everywhere to the true faith and wisdom of astroanatomotheology.

[GakuseiDon]

Revelation 22:2 provides a highly cryptic image: “On each side of the river of life stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month.” Now we all know there is no such thing as a tree growing on both sides of a river. However, if we look at the night sky, we can readily see the Milky Way Galaxy as a vast circle like a great river. The visible galaxy intersects another circle, the star path of the sun, which traditionally has twelve constellations, one for each month, with six on one side of the cosmic river and six on the other side.

There is a direct simple obvious meaningful necessary correlation between the Biblical description of the tree of life and the visible stars of the zodiac.

Robert, you call it "meaningful", but what does it actually mean??? Can you explain what Rev is saying there, through the lens of astrotheology? Here is the context leading up to Rev 22:2:

• Rev 21:
  10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
  ...
  16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
  ...
  22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
  23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
  ...
  Rev 22:
  1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
  2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
  3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
  4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
  5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Why is there an image of the zodiac inside a city that has descended from heaven? What is that image doing there? What does it mean?

[Peter Kirby]

Apparently Revelation uses some astral themes.

I'm adding here: Perhaps your critics are far too insensitive to what you see as the proper interpretation of the evidence. But, unfortunately, the presentation of a hypothesis must expect resistance to the very same hypothesis. It must embrace the ambiguities in the evidence, it must acknowledge the difficulties in the hypothesis, and in the very working out of all of this it must still show persuasive evidence of the hypothesis.

What I'm saying here is, if you want converts, write as if you are a skeptic. Remove all deep understanding from your immediate view and focus exactly on the evidence that is plain for everyone to see, building up little by little a picture that nobody could assail. Focus coldly on the facts and what can be concluded from them. That is how you win minds, anyway.