neilgodfrey wrote:Mimi, it is plain you have no interest in discussing anything with me but are interested in only throwing anything at me you think looks like mud, but I will try to point out to you that most of what you are saying does nothing more than demonstrate your own inability to comprehend simple prose passages. I selected quotes that specifically identified the meaning of astrotheology while you have selected quotes that merely come from the same discussion and that are nothing more than background historical material and that do not in themselves explain the meaning of astrotheology. You could just as easily have quoted passages that refer to the worship of fertility and said that was astrotheology, too, because the same article said that was also part of the background history.
That background is discussed in order to make the main argument for astrotheology more plausible. I have no reason to doubt that some ancient cultures did indeed embrace some form of astrotheology, by the way. What I dispute is that there is any evidence to indicate Christianity began as an astrotheology cult -- or that whatever is said to be evidence for this claim must compete with an abundance of other explanations for the same details.
No Neil, I'm not throwing any mud at you, only your own biases that are so obvious. The quotes you selected were "SELECTED" while conveniently leaving out what you don't like so that you can narrow the meaning and definition of astrotheology into a very small corner.
neilgodfrey wrote:"I have no reason to doubt that some ancient cultures did indeed embrace some form of astrotheology"
Why don't you use that as a starting point to make your case for astrotheology then? It would show how well you understand astrotheology as well as where you're coming from. I still feel I cannot trust you to be a reliable source of information on the topic of astrotheology due to your own rigid biases. It's a disservice to all freethinkers and I bring it to your attention because I'd like to think that you would not want to misinform or misrepresent the subject of astrotheology, a subject you have admitted that you avoided like the plague because you were not interested. If you're so uninterested then, why are you here trying to deny astrotheology exists and was syncretized into Christianity?
neilgodfrey wrote:"What I dispute is that there is any evidence to indicate Christianity began as an astrotheology cult -- or that whatever is said to be evidence for this claim must compete with an abundance of other explanations for the same details"
Yes you do, counter to what highly respected scholars who've actually studied the subject have to say and who concede that Christianity was syncretized from a collage of astrotheological religions. It's well documented but you refuse to study it for some reason. Why? Oh that's right, because you're an astrotheology denialist who favors anything so long as it's not astrotheology, which is just bizarre since the sun, moon, planets, stars, constellations and milky way exist and offer an Occam's razor explanation that gives a far better explanation than anything else you can come up with.
Even your hero Richard Carrier concedes the "celestial Jesus" as well as astral theology ie astrotheology:
"Element 14: Mystery cults spoke of their beliefs in public through myths and allegory, which symbolized a more secret doctrine that was usually rooted in a more esoteric astral or metaphysical theology. Therefore, as itself a mystery religion with secret doctrines, Christianity would have done the same."
- Richard Carrier, OHJ page 114
You and others here on an anti-astrotheology crusade have consistently avoided quotes, links and evidence that prove you wrong.
We can ignore Stephan Huller completely as he has absolutely nothing intelligent to add here and seems more like a troll than anything else. He should probably stick with topics he knows something about. What is his expertise anyway?
Deal with these instead of omitting them:
"...Christian scholars over the centuries have admitted that ... "there are parallels between the Mysteries and Christianity"1 and that "the miracle stories of the Gospels do in fact parallel literary forms found in pagan and Jewish miracle stories,"2 "...According to Form Criticism the Gospels are more like folklore and myth than historical fact."3
1. Metzger, HLS, 8.
2. Meier, II, 536.
3. Geisler, CA, 320.
- Who Was Jesus?, 259
"And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you [PAGANS] believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter...."
- Justin Martyr, First Apology
"It was in Roman Alexandria (30 BC-AD 394) that the new Christian religion blossomed, inspired by the writings of the Egyptian, Greek and Jewish philosophers."
- Egyptologist, Dr. Bojana Mosjov
What Egyptologists (and other scholars) say about Egypt's role in Christian origins
Even the Catholic church admits against its own interests that Christianity borrowed from a variety of Pagan religions, which would include sun worship or astrotheology:
"The well-known solar feast, however, of Natalis Invicti, celebrated on 25 December, has a strong claim on the responsibility for our December date. For the history of the solar cult, its position in the Roman Empire, and syncretism with Mithraism"
- Catholic Enc. Christmas
"Sunday was kept holy in honour of Mithra, and the sixteenth of each month was sacred to him as mediator. The 25 December was observed as his birthday, the natalis invicti, the rebirth of the winter-sun, unconquered by the rigours of the season."
- Catholic Enc. Mithraism
"...As concerns the prevalence of solar Yahwism in ancient Israel, Dr. J. Glen Taylor concludes:
"Several lines of evidence, both archaeological and biblical, bear witness to a close relationship between Yahweh and the sun. The nature of that association is such that often a 'solar' character was presumed for Yahweh. Indeed, at many points the sun actually represented Yahweh as a kind of 'icon.' Thus, in at least the vast majority of cases, biblical passages which refer to sun worship in Israel do not refer to a foreign phenomenon borrowed by idolatrous Israelites, but to a Yahwistic phenomenon which Deuteronomistic theology came to look upon as idolatrous.... an association between Yahweh and the sun was not limited to one or two obscure contexts, but was remarkably well integrated into the religion of ancient Israel." (Taylor, 257)
Hence, the sun was worshipped by the Israelites, who associated it with their tribal god Yahweh. Like Father, like son, and the connection between Jesus and the sun is first evidenced in the OT book of Malachi (4:2), which immediately precedes the New Testament and in which the author refers to the "Sun of Righteousness" who will "arise with healing in his wings." This scripture, which is in the last chapter before the Gospel of Matthew, sounds much like the winged solar disc of Babylon and Egypt.
"The Sun of Righteousness will arise with healing in his wings."
This scripture in Malachi is perceived as a reference to the coming messiah, Jesus Christ. In this regard, this clearly solar appellation "Sun of Righteousness" is repeated many times by early Church fathers as being applicable to Christ.
Jesus as the Sun throughout History
Jesus Christ, Sun of Righteousness
[youtube]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faILHU82-Cw[/youtube]
That video above, Jesus Christ, Sun of Righteousness, includes many quotes from early Christianity.
Star Worship of the Ancient Israelites
2,750-year-old solar-aligned temple discovered in Israel
The Astrotheological Origins of Christianity
The Zodiac and Judeo-Christian Astrotheology
Ezekiel 8:16 "And he brought me into the inner court of the house of the Lord; and behold, at the door of the temple of the Lord, between the porch and the altar, were about twenty-five men, with their backs to the temple of the Lord, and their faces toward the east, worshiping the sun toward the east."
"...in his Apology (16), Tertullian raises the subject of Roman gods in the shape of a cross or in cruciform: We have shown before that your deities are derived from shapes modelled from the cross. But you also worship victories, for in your trophies the cross is the heart of the trophy. The camp religion of the Romans is all through a worship of the standards, a setting the standards above all gods. Well, as those images decking out the standards are ornaments of crosses. All those hangings of your standards and banners are robes of crosses.3 Hence, Tertullian attested that the Romans bore images of not only a man but also gods on crosses, that they additionally possessed gods themselves in cruciform and that these images were objects of worship...."
"In its article on Tertullian, the Catholic Encyclopedia paraphrases the pertinent parts of the Church father's work thus:
"…your gods are images made on a cross framework, so you worship crosses. You say we worship the sun; so do you."
- Who Was Jesus? Fingerprints of The Christ (WWJ) (243-4)
Tertullian Chapter XIII - The Charge of Worshipping the Sun Met by a Retort
"Others, with greater regard to good manners, it must be confessed, suppose that the sun is the god of the Christians, because it is a well-known fact that we pray towards the east, or because we make Sunday a day of festivity. What then? Do you do less than this? Do not many among you, with an affectation of sometimes worshipping the heavenly bodies likewise, move your lips in the direction of the sunrise? It is you, at all events, who have even admitted the sun into the calendar of the week; and you have selected its day,215 in preference to the preceding day216 as the most suitable in the week217 for either an entire abstinence from the bath, or for its postponement until the evening, or for taking rest and for banqueting. By resorting to these customs, you deliberately deviate from your own religious rites to those of strangers. For the Jewish feasts on the Sabbath and "the Purification,"218 and Jewish also are the ceremonies of the lamps,219 and the fasts of unleavened bread, and the "littoral prayers,"220 all which institutions and practices are of course foreign from your gods. Wherefore, that I may return from this digression, you who reproach us with the sun and Sunday should consider your proximity to us. We are not far off from your Saturn and your days of rest."
"At Stonehenge in England and Carnac in France, in Egypt and Yucatan, across the whole face of the earth are found mysterious ruins of ancient monuments, monuments with astronomical significance. These relics of other times are as accessible as the American Midwest and as remote as the jungles of Guatemala. Some of them were built according to celestial alignments; others were actually precision astronomical observatories ... Careful observation of the celestial rhythms was compellingly important to early peoples, and their expertise, in some respects, was not equaled in Europe until three thousand years later."
- Dr. Edwin Krupp, Astronomer and Director of the Griffith Observatory in Los Angeles
Again, it would be wise for the critics to actually study the subject of astrotheology before jumping to false preconceived assumptions.
