in defence of astrotheology

[Bertie]

Didn't we find something in Revelations to do with precession? If so, granted, it could have been "lifted"/"copied" from another source. Yes it is just one small reference. But it does appear to exist. Why does it exist? Who inserted it into the text and why?

Consider this analogy. There are, I believe, four quotations or near-quotations of Ancient Greek playwrights in the New Testament. Do I need an explanation for these? Does a "New Testament Theory" that explains these four quotations gain significantly more "explanatory power" over a theory that does not?

No, because there is no difficulty, no anomaly, no problem here. The four quotations are just commonplace aphorisms. They require no more explanation than would an English writer quoting Shakespeare or the King James Bible.

Likewise, the number twelve and some stars is not a difficulty, an anomaly, a problem that requires any explanation. That is pretty much the most basic, rudimentary astronomical knowledge that there is, and no theory that explains the existence of one instance of the number twelve and some stars gains any "explanatory power" by doing so; because the "explanatory power" at stake is so low, it would be an Occam's Razor violation to bring in some kind of elaborate "astrotheology" not otherwise proven to be known to the author to explain just an irrelevancy in the text.

What do you think on this question. What is the theme of the NT? (Not the plot, the theme)

There isn't one, and I don't expect there to be one because it is written by different, uncoordinated authors who disagree. And a lot of those books, I'm not quite sure what they mean.

However, I pretty much know what Revelation "means". So do most secular New Testament scholars, probably. They pretty much "solved" Revelation in my estimation, and it is solved by reading the Hebrew Bible, particularly Ezekiel and Daniel, add in a bit of scholarship on features of apocalyptic literature, and something about Nero/Nero Redivivus as well as the equivalent political timeline in the mid 2st Century BCE. The basic point of the book is to prepare the believers in the face of a tribulation, the beginning of the end times eschatology more-or-less shared by Daniel, Paul, Mark, and Revelation which will end with God destroying the world in his wrath, the resurrection of the dead, their judgement, the damnation of the wicked (and Satan), and the inheritance by the believers of a new heaven and earth. The first part of the book, the letters to the churches, combine (very Jewish) moral exhortation with metaphors straight from the Old Testament (that even mean more or less the same thing as they do there); with the judgement near, need for this kind of exhortation is obvious. Then we get the tribulation and wrath, sort-of retold twice, as Loren Rosson explained a year ago; the imagery are a sort-of syncretism between Ezekiel/Daniel and Nero/Nero Redivivus. Roughly, the Christians who are believers in the "Pre-Tribulation Rapture" get the eschatology timeline right, but they get the imagery wrong because they don't understand how Nero could possibly be in view; Christians called "preterists" get the symbolism right but err in believing this is a book about the completed past and not about the end times — no, this really is meant to be the end-times eschatology, and it incorporates vivid imagery from the author's recent past because that's how apocalyptic literature actually works (as in Daniel and elsewhere).

So does "astrotheology" have anything to add here? I'm not interested in knowing whether the Whore of Babylon is really Babylon or Rome or "all of the above"; that doesn't do anything to the basic thrust of the book. I can't imagine it having anything to say about the first few chapters, which are about as Jewish as anything in the Old Testament. I can't imagine it doing anything to the basic eschatology, which as I've said is more or less Daniel, Mark, and Paul's eschatology. The overwhelming importing of imagery from the Old Testament is not disputable; the Nero/Nero Redivivus thing barely so. There's nothing important here for "astrotheology" to do.

(minor date correction made to text)

[Mimi]

Likewise, the number twelve and some stars is not a difficulty, an anomaly, a problem that requires any explanation. That is pretty much the most basic, rudimentary astronomical knowledge that there is, and no theory that explains the existence of one instance of the number twelve and some stars gains any "explanatory power" by doing so; because the "explanatory power" at stake is so low, it would be an Occam's Razor violation to bring in some kind of elaborate "astrotheology" not otherwise proven to be known to the author to explain just an irrelevancy in the text.

...

So does "astrotheology" have anything to add here? I'm not interested in knowing whether the Whore of Babylon is really Babylon or Rome or "all of the above"; that doesn't do anything to the basic thrust of the book. I can't imagine it having anything to say about the first few chapters, which are about as Jewish as anything in the Old Testament. I can't imagine it doing anything to the basic eschatology, which as I've said is more or less Daniel, Mark, and Paul's eschatology. The overwhelming importing of imagery from the Old Testament is not disputable; the Nero/Nero Redivivus thing barely so. There's nothing important here for "astrotheology" to do.

It would be wise for the anti-astraliters to actually study the subject for a change.

Were the twelve Patriarchs and the twelve tribes of Israel and the twelve disciples of Jesus based on the twelve signs of the zodiac?

Testimony of Josephus and Philo

"The claim that the 12 tribes of Israel were identified with the 12 signs of the zodiac is spelled out clearly by the ancient Jewish writers Philo and Josephus, during the first century. During the first century BCE, Diodorus Siculus identified the 12 tribes with the 12 months.

"See Exodus 39:9-14: "...they made the breastplate... And they set in it four rows of stones... And the stones were according to the names of the children of Israel, twelve...according to the twelve tribes."

As Josephus says (Antiquities, 3.8): "And for the twelve stones, whether we understand by them the months, or whether we understand the like number of the signs of that circle which the Greeks call the zodiac, we shall not be mistaken in their meaning." (Josephus/Whiston, 75.)

Earlier than Josephus, Philo ("On the Life of Moses," 12) had made the same comments regarding Moses: "Then the twelve stones on the breast, which are not like one another in colour, and which are divided into four rows of three stones in each, what else can they be emblems of, except of the circle of the zodiac?" (Philo/Duke, 99.)"

- Christ in Egypt, 261-2

As we can see, by the first century it was well known that the theme of "the 12" was astrological in nature.

For more:

The Twelve in the Bible and Ancient Mythology

Astrotheology of the Ancients

Star Worship of the Ancient Israelites

It really looks like none of the critics of astrotheology are willing to study the subject or read the quotes, links or videos that prove them wrong.

[Mimi]

GakuseiDon, here's the updated version of "The Origins of Christianity and the Quest for the Historical Jesus"

[neilgodfrey]

Deal with these instead of omitting them:

"...Christian scholars over the centuries have admitted that ... "there are parallels between the Mysteries and Christianity"1 and that "the miracle stories of the Gospels do in fact parallel literary forms found in pagan and Jewish miracle stories,"2 "...According to Form Criticism the Gospels are more like folklore and myth than historical fact."3

Agree with this 100%. Have written about these points myself.

"And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you [PAGANS] believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter...."

- Justin Martyr, First Apology

Fully acknowledge this statement by Justin and have used it myself as an important historical detail.

"It was in Roman Alexandria (30 BC-AD 394) that the new Christian religion blossomed, inspired by the writings of the Egyptian, Greek and Jewish philosophers."

- Egyptologist, Dr. Bojana Mosjov

I think this is quite right, too.

"The well-known solar feast, however, of Natalis Invicti, celebrated on 25 December, has a strong claim on the responsibility for our December date. For the history of the solar cult, its position in the Roman Empire, and syncretism with Mithraism"
- Catholic Enc. Christmas

Fully agree. Have known this ever since adolescence. I think most (or certainly very many) Christians even know this, at least where I come from they do.

"Sunday was kept holy in honour of Mithra, and the sixteenth of each month was sacred to him as mediator. The 25 December was observed as his birthday, the natalis invicti, the rebirth of the winter-sun, unconquered by the rigours of the season."
- Catholic Enc. Mithraism

Well, the very name "Sun-Day" says it all, doesn't it.

"...As concerns the prevalence of solar Yahwism in ancient Israel, Dr. J. Glen Taylor concludes:

"Several lines of evidence, both archaeological and biblical, bear witness to a close relationship between Yahweh and the sun. The nature of that association is such that often a 'solar' character was presumed for Yahweh. Indeed, at many points the sun actually represented Yahweh as a kind of 'icon.' Thus, in at least the vast majority of cases, biblical passages which refer to sun worship in Israel do not refer to a foreign phenomenon borrowed by idolatrous Israelites, but to a Yahwistic phenomenon which Deuteronomistic theology came to look upon as idolatrous.... an association between Yahweh and the sun was not limited to one or two obscure contexts, but was remarkably well integrated into the religion of ancient Israel." (Taylor, 257)

Fully agree. Taylor's is an interesting work. You should read it in its entirety.

"The Sun of Righteousness will arise with healing in his wings."

This scripture in Malachi is perceived as a reference to the coming messiah, Jesus Christ. In this regard, this clearly solar appellation "Sun of Righteousness" is repeated many times by early Church fathers as being applicable to Christ.

Yep, no doubt.

National Geographic's "Ancient Astronomers" discusses the 16,000 year old cave painting/mural depicting the zodiac at Lascaux in Southern France with archaeoastronomer, Chantal Jegues-Wolkiewiez:

National Geographic's "Ancient Astronomers"

Stone Age Zodiac
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfbE-syvLpE

I haven't watched this but I have often read with interest the evidence for astronomical measurements and observations back in pre-historic times. Fascinating.

Ezekiel 8:16 "And he brought me into the inner court of the house of the Lord; and behold, at the door of the temple of the Lord, between the porch and the altar, were about twenty-five men, with their backs to the temple of the Lord, and their faces toward the east, worshiping the sun toward the east."

Yep. This passage has been well-known to me ever since I was a devout follower of the Bible, as I am sure it is very familiar to many Bible believers.

"...in his Apology (16), Tertullian raises the subject of Roman gods in the shape of a cross or in cruciform: We have shown before that your deities are derived from shapes modelled from the cross. But you also worship victories, for in your trophies the cross is the heart of the trophy. The camp religion of the Romans is all through a worship of the standards, a setting the standards above all gods. Well, as those images decking out the standards are ornaments of crosses. All those hangings of your standards and banners are robes of crosses.3 Hence, Tertullian attested that the Romans bore images of not only a man but also gods on crosses, that they additionally possessed gods themselves in cruciform and that these images were objects of worship...."

This is something that fascinates me. I have wondered if this should tie in with Peppard's and Schmidt's arguments that the cross was a symbol of a mock Roman triumph. What do you make of Tertullian's words? What is he referring to exactly, do you think?

Tertullian Chapter XIII - The Charge of Worshipping the Sun Met by a Retort

"Others, with greater regard to good manners, it must be confessed, suppose that the sun is the god of the Christians, because it is a well-known fact that we pray towards the east, or because we make Sunday a day of festivity. What then? Do you do less than this? Do not many among you, with an affectation of sometimes worshipping the heavenly bodies likewise, move your lips in the direction of the sunrise? It is you, at all events, who have even admitted the sun into the calendar of the week; and you have selected its day,215 in preference to the preceding day216 as the most suitable in the week217 for either an entire abstinence from the bath, or for its postponement until the evening, or for taking rest and for banqueting. By resorting to these customs, you deliberately deviate from your own religious rites to those of strangers. For the Jewish feasts on the Sabbath and "the Purification,"218 and Jewish also are the ceremonies of the lamps,219 and the fasts of unleavened bread, and the "littoral prayers,"220 all which institutions and practices are of course foreign from your gods. Wherefore, that I may return from this digression, you who reproach us with the sun and Sunday should consider your proximity to us. We are not far off from your Saturn and your days of rest."

Yes. Interesting historical insight here, isn't it. Again, though, I have been aware of this and used it as a basis for understanding early Christian history long before I ceased being a Christian myself. Interesting to compare this with what we read in the New Testament, don't you think? How do you account for the changes?

"At Stonehenge in England and Carnac in France, in Egypt and Yucatan, across the whole face of the earth are found mysterious ruins of ancient monuments, monuments with astronomical significance. These relics of other times are as accessible as the American Midwest and as remote as the jungles of Guatemala. Some of them were built according to celestial alignments; others were actually precision astronomical observatories ... Careful observation of the celestial rhythms was compellingly important to early peoples, and their expertise, in some respects, was not equaled in Europe until three thousand years later."

- Dr. Edwin Krupp, Astronomer and Director of the Griffith Observatory in Los Angeles

Yes, I've long been fascinated by the Stone Henge and megalith cultures generally. Most interesting, aren't they.

[GakuseiDon]

GakuseiDon, here's the updated version of "The Origins of Christianity and the Quest for the Historical Jesus"

Mimi, I looked at that link, but it doesn't answer my question: How would you show that elements below (e.g. Son of God begins his father's work at age 12, begins his ministry at age 30, etc) have come from astrotheology, rather than another source? Is there any way? How would you remove the "false positives" from amongst the assertions below?

This is the editted list of astrotheological elements for the "Sun of God" from Acharya S's "The Christ Conspiracy", pages 155/156:

• The following are the main characteristics of the “sun of God”:
  
  • The sun “dies” for three days at the winter solstice, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th .
  • The sun of God is “born of a virgin,” which refers to both the new or “virgin” moon and the constellation of Virgo.
  • The sun at its zenith, or 12 noon, is in the house or heavenly temple of the “Most High”; thus, “he” begins “his Father’s work” at “age” 12. Maxwell relates, “At that point, all Egypt offered prayers to the ‘Most High’ God!”
  • The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30°; hence, the “Sun of God” begins his ministry at “age” 30...
  • The sun is the “Carpenter” who builds his daily “houses” or 12 two-hour divisions.
  • The sun’s “followers” or “disciples” are the 12 signs of the zodiac, through which the sun must pass.
  • The sun is “anointed” when its rays dip into the sea.
  • The sun “changes water into wine” by creating rain, ripening the grape on the vine and fermenting the grape juice.
  • The sun “walks on water,” referring to its reflection.
  • The sun “calms the sea” as he rests in the “boat of heaven.” (Mt. 8:23-7)
  • When the sun is annually and monthly re-born, he brings life to the “solar mummy,” his previous self, raising it from the dead.
  • The sun triumphantly “rides an ass and her foal” into the “City of Peace” when it enters the sign of Cancer, which contains two stars called “little asses,” and reaches its fullness.
  • The sun is “betrayed” by the constellation of the Scorpion, the backbiter, the time of the year when the solar hero loses his strength.
  • The sun is “crucified” between the two thieves of Sagittarius and Capricorn.
  • The sun is hung on a cross, which represents its passing through the equinoxes, the vernal equinox being Easter.
  • The sun does a “stutter-step” at the winter solstice, unsure whether to return to life or “resurrect,” doubted by his “twin” Thomas.
  • The sun is with us “always, to the close of the age” (Mt. 28:20), referring to the ages of the precession of the equinoxes.
  • The sun is the “Light of the World,” and “comes on clouds, and every eye shall see him.”
  • The sun wears a corona, “crown of thorns” or halo.
  • The sun is the Word or Logos of God.

Is there a methodology for determining which elements come from astrotheology and which don't?

[MrMacSon]

Is there a methodology for determining which elements come from astrotheology and which don't?

Is there a methodology to astrotheology?

Is there a methodology to theology?

add: in thinking further, surely only access to, and evaluation of, historical information about the development of these belief systems would tell us?

[Leucius Charinus]

Didn't we find something in Revelations to do with precession? If so, granted, it could have been "lifted"/"copied" from another source. Yes it is just one small reference. But it does appear to exist. Why does it exist? Who inserted it into the text and why?

Consider this analogy. There are, I believe, four quotations or near-quotations of Ancient Greek playwrights in the New Testament. Do I need an explanation for these? Does a "New Testament Theory" that explains these four quotations gain significantly more "explanatory power" over a theory that does not?

Yes I understand that argument. I was just quibbling over your statement that there was no evidence at all. I agree that it does not amount to much in terms of percentage text, and that is why I asked about the theme ...

What do you think on this question. What is the theme of the NT? (Not the plot, the theme)

There isn't one, and I don't expect there to be one because it is written by different, uncoordinated authors who disagree.

Well that's one answer I suppose. No theme. However since starting this thread it had recently occurred to me that those who champion an astrotheological influence behind the NT Bible may be dealing with an astrotheological influence on the theme of this collection of books. One of the ways that I can consider an evaluation of this claim is to try and assess a theme related to the main character in those books - Jesus. Doherty and Carrier think he is some "celestial deity". Does anyone think that this is NOT an astrotheological Jesus?




LC

[Leucius Charinus]

GakuseiDon, here's the updated version of "The Origins of Christianity and the Quest for the Historical Jesus"

Mimi, I looked at that link, but it doesn't answer my question: How would you show that elements below (e.g. Son of God begins his father's work at age 12, begins his ministry at age 30, etc) have come from astrotheology, rather than another source? Is there any way? How would you remove the "false positives" from amongst the assertions below?

This is the editted list of astrotheological elements for the "Sun of God" from Acharya S's "The Christ Conspiracy", pages 155/156:

• The following are the main characteristics of the “sun of God”:
  
  • The sun “dies” for three days at the winter solstice, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th .
  • The sun of God is “born of a virgin,” which refers to both the new or “virgin” moon and the constellation of Virgo.
  • The sun at its zenith, or 12 noon, is in the house or heavenly temple of the “Most High”; thus, “he” begins “his Father’s work” at “age” 12. Maxwell relates, “At that point, all Egypt offered prayers to the ‘Most High’ God!”
  • The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30°; hence, the “Sun of God” begins his ministry at “age” 30...
  • The sun is the “Carpenter” who builds his daily “houses” or 12 two-hour divisions.
  • The sun’s “followers” or “disciples” are the 12 signs of the zodiac, through which the sun must pass.
  • The sun is “anointed” when its rays dip into the sea.
  • The sun “changes water into wine” by creating rain, ripening the grape on the vine and fermenting the grape juice.
  • The sun “walks on water,” referring to its reflection.
  • The sun “calms the sea” as he rests in the “boat of heaven.” (Mt. 8:23-7)
  • When the sun is annually and monthly re-born, he brings life to the “solar mummy,” his previous self, raising it from the dead.
  • The sun triumphantly “rides an ass and her foal” into the “City of Peace” when it enters the sign of Cancer, which contains two stars called “little asses,” and reaches its fullness.
  • The sun is “betrayed” by the constellation of the Scorpion, the backbiter, the time of the year when the solar hero loses his strength.
  • The sun is “crucified” between the two thieves of Sagittarius and Capricorn.
  • The sun is hung on a cross, which represents its passing through the equinoxes, the vernal equinox being Easter.
  • The sun does a “stutter-step” at the winter solstice, unsure whether to return to life or “resurrect,” doubted by his “twin” Thomas.
  • The sun is with us “always, to the close of the age” (Mt. 28:20), referring to the ages of the precession of the equinoxes.
  • The sun is the “Light of the World,” and “comes on clouds, and every eye shall see him.”
  • The sun wears a corona, “crown of thorns” or halo.
  • The sun is the Word or Logos of God.

Is there a methodology for determining which elements come from astrotheology and which don't?

Thanks G'Don for this list.

I think that lists omits an obvious and very important element. It includes the element that the sun is annually and monthly re-born, but it omits the geocentric belief in antiquity that the sun dies and is reborn daily, after traversing the Underworld. Something that happens on a daily basis without fail is bound to impress itself into the psyche and experience of all people.

• The sun “dies” at evening in the West, and travels through the Underworld to be born again (resurrected) in the East in the morning.

This IMO is the singular most important attribute of the geocentric cosmology of antiquity that differs from our way of thinking. The earth did not spin. Rather the sun is born and then dies and was born again. Such was part of the great mystery of ancient [geocentric] philosophy/life.

When this is added to Acharya's list, Jesus as a sun god becomes pretty clear IMO. All other mortal lives consisted of birth and then death and consignment to the Underworld without too many statistical records of resurrections. Man died and went under. End of story. Period. Jesus, as a god or deity is born, then dies and is reborn. Just like the geocentric sun.


Does Acharya mention this anywhere in her works? I think that this element adds to the defence of an astrotheological Jesus



LC

[neilgodfrey]

Do any of the Roman and Greek myths speak of a sun god -- Helios, Hyperion, Sol, Apollo -- dying and rising?

[MrMacSon]

Do any of the Roman and Greek myths speak of a sun god -- Helios, Hyperion, Sol, Apollo -- dying and rising?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dying-and- ... he_concept

Pagan Parallel "Saviors" Examined

Adonis | Attis | Baal | Bacchus | Balder | Beddru | Devatat | Dionysos | Hermes | Horus | Krishna | Mithras | Orpheus | Osiris | Tammuz | Thor | Zoroaster

http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/Jesu ... .htm#Pagan

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexami ... ng-savior/
.