D. M. Murdock makes mistakes?

[John T]

John T is truly the anti-mythicist one-man-wrecking-crew, first Carrier(via youtube), now Murdock (via goalpost moving) he sure has demolished them. I'm sure he remains comfortable in his faith. Nuance be damned!

I'm only showing the other side of the coin.

Actually, it was Bart Ehrman that demolished the mythicists. At the end of his book he questioned their true motives because he proved getting history right isn't one of them.

"It is no accident that virtually all mythicists (in fact, all of them, to my knowledge) are either atheists or agnostics. The ones I know anything about are quite virulently, even militantly, atheist....And what easier way is there to undermine Christianity than to claim that the figure at the heart of Christian worship and devotion never even existed but was invented, made up, created?...They [mythicists] are not doing history; they are doing theology."...pg 337-338

"Jesus did exist, whether we like it or not."...Bart Ehrman

But perseusomega9 already knew that, he just doesn't want anyone else to know.

Yeah, I got it.

John T

[andrewcriddle]

The basis for Murdock's claim appears to be King's The Gnostics and their remains

The celebrated letter of Christ to Abgarus was (according to Cedrenus) sealed with the initials of the seven Hebrew words, whose Greek interpretation was Θεὸς Θεοθὲν θαῦμα θεῖον. At the mere sight of the seal the king was healed of his gout and of his blade leprosy, all but a slight trace upon the face remaining to be cleansed by the waters of baptism. Cedrenus' Greek reads like a popular formula, and may serve to explain the legend on the reverse of an Abraxas gem in my possession, ΙΧΘΕΘΩΗΙΑΙΑΩ, as to be read Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸσ Θεὸς ἐκ Θεοῦ Ιαὼ, "Jesus Christ, God of God, Jehovah." This inscription encloses the letters ΙΗ placed conspicuously in 'the centre, and which probably represent, as nearly as the two discordant alphabets allow, the Hebrew letters Jod, He, the Kabalistic name of the Tikkan, "Express Image," or First Emanation of the Godhead.

King was in his day a serious scholar but his claim that ΙΧΘΕΘΩΗΙΑΙΑΩ, as to be read Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸσ Θεὸς ἐκ Θεοῦ Ιαὼ, "Jesus Christ, God of God, Jehovah. seems speculative.

Andrew Criddle

[John T]

The basis for Murdock's claim appears to be King's The Gnostics and their remains

The celebrated letter of Christ to Abgarus was (according to Cedrenus) sealed with the initials of the seven Hebrew words, whose Greek interpretation was Θεὸς Θεοθὲν θαῦμα θεῖον. At the mere sight of the seal the king was healed of his gout and of his blade leprosy, all but a slight trace upon the face remaining to be cleansed by the waters of baptism. Cedrenus' Greek reads like a popular formula, and may serve to explain the legend on the reverse of an Abraxas gem in my possession, ΙΧΘΕΘΩΗΙΑΙΑΩ, as to be read Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸσ Θεὸς ἐκ Θεοῦ Ιαὼ, "Jesus Christ, God of God, Jehovah." This inscription encloses the letters ΙΗ placed conspicuously in 'the centre, and which probably represent, as nearly as the two discordant alphabets allow, the Hebrew letters Jod, He, the Kabalistic name of the Tikkan, "Express Image," or First Emanation of the Godhead.

King was in his day a serious scholar but his claim that ΙΧΘΕΘΩΗΙΑΙΑΩ, as to be read Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸσ Θεὸς ἐκ Θεοῦ Ιαὼ, "Jesus Christ, God of God, Jehovah. seems speculative.

Andrew Criddle

Thanks for taking a look at it but of course it is not what I'm looking for.

Sincerely,
John T

[slevin]

During her music video: "Jesus Christ, Sun of Righteousness" (around the 1:42 minute mark) there is a screen shot with Greek words saying: "Jesus Christ God from God Iao".
Now that got my ears to perk up! Where did that come from?

The basis for Murdock's claim appears to be King's The Gnostics and their remains

Thank you Andrew, well done.

Thanks for taking a look at it but of course it is not what I'm looking for.

Evidently, I fail to understand what it is that you seek to learn, if you have found Andrew's link wanting. I find his link perfect. His reference answers your question.

Andrew's link makes very clear, that "Jesus Christ God from God Iao" is coming from gnostic influences, and "Iao", which we would pronounce "yao", is derived from YHWH.

It is very remarkable, considering its high repute, that no Gnostic stone bearing such an inscription should be known to exist. On the other hand that normal address to Iao, ΑΒΛΑΝΘΑΑΛΒΑ, "Thou art our Father!" is so found on talismanic jaspers arranged in the exact pattern recommended by Serenus for the paper spell, and probably so done in compliance with his directions.

Iao corresponds to YHWH. So, this is very logical, yes, Jesus is a deity, yes, his father was YHWH.

[Peter Kirby]

I take it that we want to leave to one side the matter of the quote that is not, apparently, a quote?

Abraxas

Of the amulet:

ΙΧΘΕΘΩΗΙΑΙΑΩ

I'm willing to grant a probability that ΙΑΙΑΩ or ΙΑΩ reads for the Greek name of the Jewish God, and also to IX as reading out initials for Jesus Christ.

http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/test-arch ... /4527.html
https://books.google.com/books?id=rvGTcg-30pEC&pg=PA223

How are we to read ΘΕΘΩΗ or ΘΕΘΩΗΙΑ?

There is a distinct possibility that it is utter nonsense, which would have countless parallels in magical papyri, etc.

https://books.google.com/books?id=rvGTcg-30pEC&pg=PA178

However, we can try to press further. Ex hypothesi, the amulet starts with initials. We know of a tradition regarding "Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior." Using these types of initials, can we work something out?

ΙΧ = Jesus Christ

ΘΕ = God's Chosen

ΘΩ = God's Son

H = Prince (Hegemon) / Eli (which is spelled with eta)

Ι = either part of the tetragrammaton or perhaps "priest" or "physician" or once again "Jesus"

Α = either part of the tetragrammaton or perhaps "Abba" or "Adonai" (phonetically)

ΙΑΩ = a Greek take on the tetragrammaton

"Jesus Christ, God's chosen, God's Son, Prince, ΙΑ, ΙΑΩ" (with a number of variations possible)

It is impossible, however, to treat any such speculative hypothesis as a quote or as a source.

[John T]

I take it that we want to leave to one side the matter of the quote that is not, apparently, a quote?

Abraxas

Of the amulet:

ΙΧΘΕΘΩΗΙΑΙΑΩ

I'm willing to grant a probability that ΙΑΙΑΩ or ΙΑΩ reads for the Greek name of the Jewish God, and also to IX as reading out initials for Jesus Christ.

http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/test-arch ... /4527.html
https://books.google.com/books?id=rvGTcg-30pEC&pg=PA223

How are we to read ΘΕΘΩΗ or ΘΕΘΩΗΙΑ?

There is a distinct possibility that it is utter nonsense, which would have countless parallels in magical papyri, etc.

https://books.google.com/books?id=rvGTcg-30pEC&pg=PA178

However, we can try to press further. Ex hypothesi, the amulet starts with initials. We know of a tradition regarding "Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior." Using these types of initials, can we work something out?

ΙΧ = Jesus Christ

ΘΕ = God's Chosen

ΘΩ = God's Son

H = Prince (Hegemon) / Eli (which is spelled with eta)

Ι = either part of the tetragrammaton or perhaps "priest" or "physician" or once again "Jesus"

Α = either part of the tetragrammaton or perhaps "Abba" or "Adonai" (phonetically)

ΙΑΩ = a Greek take on the tetragrammaton

"Jesus Christ, God's chosen, God's Son, Prince, ΙΑ, ΙΑΩ" (with a number of variations possible)

It is impossible, however, to treat any such speculative hypothesis as a quote or as a source.

In layman terms what Peter just said is; 'Close but no cigar!'

I think what Acharya S. did is clear enough.
Acharya S., in her music video tried to plant evidence that Jesus is a sun-god (Iao): "Jesus Christ God from God Iao".

I was hoping that the fans of Acharya S. would already know off the top of their heads where that saying came from. If not, they would at least be inquisitive enough to e-mail her so as to clarify where she got it from.

Did not happen!

So, Bart Ehrman was correct in saying; "....Acharya's major points are in fact wrong. Jesus was not invented in Alexandria Egypt, in the middle of the second Christian century.".... He was not originally a sun-god (as if that equals Son-God!); in fact, in the earliest traditions we have about him, he was not known as a divine being at all."...pg 22-23

Now it looks like the last kookoo birds to pluck feathers from is; Timothy Freke & Peter Gandy.

From there, perhaps I can finally move onto Biblical criticism & history, which I thought this forum was suppose to be all about in the first place.

v/r

John T

[Mimi]

John T has obviously started this thread with an agenda. Here's Dr. Robert Price responding to Ehrman's trash about Acharya S:

"Such libel only reveals a total disinclination to do a fraction of the research manifest on any singe page of Acharya's works."

- Dr. Robert Price, page xxi, Bart Ehrman and the Quest of the Historical Jesus of Nazareth: An Evaluation of Ehrman s Did Jesus Exist?

Bart Ehrman caught in lies and libel?

Historian Richard Carrier caught Ehrman LYING about Acharya

Religion and the Ph.D.: A Brief History