Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

"Murdock has made mistakes, as is to be expected in such a pioneering and complex topic as an overturning of conventional opinion on the Historical Jesus. But those errors are minor. I find the derogatory comments about Murdock, such as from Gakusei Don in this thread, completely astonishing and incomprehensible, except on the basis that those making them are misinformed or irrational."...Robert Tulip

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Sounds like she should be taken seriously, so I decided to take a peek at her web-page.
http://truthbeknown.com/

If I understand astrotheology correctly, Jesus is a Sun god and his 12 disciples are the signs of the Zodiac.
Did I get that right?

During her music video: "Jesus Christ, Sun of Righteousness" (around the 1:42 minute mark) there is a screen shot with Greek words saying: "Jesus Christ God from God Iao".
Now that got my ears to perk up! Where did that come from? It is was not clear to me what her source was but alongside that is the caption; "...among the Judaeans...the God [was] called by the name IAO."...Diodorus Siculus (1.94).

Did that come from the "Bibliotheca Historica"? If so, can anyone provide a link as well as a cut & past to confirm it?
Seems I'm fresh out of copies of the works of Diodorus Siculus.

The same slide also shows the Greek letters for Iao from a Dead Sea Scroll fragment listed as; 4Q120 and is dated 1st century BCE.
So, I decided to look it up in Geza Vermes'; "The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls in English". Vermes suggests it is from Levictius 4:27 and that Iao, is a "Tetragram (the divine name YHWH) is rendered semi-phonetically as Iao, and is not replaced, as was customary later, by the Greek Kurios (Lord)."...pg 440. However, he goes on to say that; "Spanish Jesuit, Jose' O'Callaghan claimed it is from the Gospel of Mark."...pg 441.

You can see the fragment at wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4Q120

So, with all that as a back ground, can anyone confirm that the Torah states God is the Sun? Dittos for the New Testament; Jesus Christ is a Sun god?

Astrotheology makes my head hurt!

John T

Is ancient aliens a credible historical production?


Is YEC a credible scientific institution?

John T wrote:If I understand astrotheology correctly, Jesus is a Sun god and his 12 disciples are the signs of the Zodiac.
Did I get that right?

I think that this sentence of yours, is the key to answering your question, right here:

John T wrote:So, with all that as a back ground, can anyone confirm that the Torah states God is the Sun? Dittos for the New Testament; Jesus Christ is a Sun god?

Christianity began as a mixture of traditions, it is not purely Jewish in background, and that is your problem, I believe. The twelve tribes and the twelve disciples both arose from the twelve signs of the zodiac, which antedates both Zoroastrianism and Judaism. The lunar calendar is also a component. These twelve signs are related to the northern hemisphere stellar constellations, not the Torah. If you wish to understand the origins of Christianity, you may benefit from reading about ancient mythology, rather than relying exclusively on whatever appears in ancient Hebrew texts. There were many "divine" creatures in history, who died and were subsequently resurrected.

Christianity began as a mixture of traditions, it is not purely Jewish in background, and that is your problem, I believe.

Assertion alert!! Assertion alert!!

If you can even so much as prove THAT - i.e. that something other than Judaism, that is that more than Jews were responsible for creating the gospel or Christianity - I would be very impressed. Unfortunately it is not possible to do that. In other words, there is no way to demonstrate that people other than Jews would have used the Jewish scriptures or that anything non-Jewish is present in earliest Christianity. Prove to me that anything more than Jews or 'Jewish culture' is responsible for the origin of Christianity.

And don't cite 'Greek philosophy.' Philo makes clear that Jews were still 'Jewish' and interested and enthusiastic about Greek philosophy, they used the Greek language. But there is nothing more than Philo or someone or 'someones' like Philo at the beginning of Christianity. Silly assertion-based argumentation.

Stephan Huller wrote: ... In other words, there is no way to demonstrate that people other than Jews would have used the Jewish scriptures or that anything non-Jewish is present in earliest Christianity. Prove to me that anything more than Jews or 'Jewish culture' is responsible for the origin of Christianity.

There were other religions preceding Christianity that espoused baptism*, use of the cross as a symbol, and resurrection

* http://dwij.org/forum/amarna/8_serapis_ ... ianity.htm

1. I ate a scrambled egg and toast for breakfast

2. Lionel Messi scored three goals today and is now 2 goals behind Cristiano Ronaldo in la Liga

3. My dog likes goose liver pate

Three other fucking things that have absolutely nothing to do with the point I just made (referenced to add company to your idiotic reply)

John T, the source was right there at 1:42, same as all the other sources that were right there all along. She even provided an image of the original fragment and an English translation and cited DSS fragment 4Q120. What more could one want?

I tend to agree with the Robert Tulip quote on this, I can appreciate Murdock's work and the fact that she's a pioneer on the subject of astrotheology and has the courage to be willing to make mistakes from time to time. It is a massive undertaking for sure. If it were easy, everybody would do it. It seems the critics just want to 'poison the well' to ruin any legitimate discussion of astrotheology as well as ruin the reputation and credibility of any body who tries taking on the subject. I have yet to see a legitimate objective discussion on astrotheology without a troll coming in to antagonize and ruin the discussion.

On that note, I do not see any "mistakes" here.

Jesus Christ, Sun of Righteousness

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faILHU82-Cw

John T wrote:"Murdock has made mistakes, as is to be expected in such a pioneering and complex topic as an overturning of conventional opinion on the Historical Jesus. But those errors are minor. I find the derogatory comments about Murdock, such as from Gakusei Don in this thread, completely astonishing and incomprehensible, except on the basis that those making them are misinformed or irrational."...Robert Tulip

John T, do you have a link to that thread? I'm wondering what derogatory comments I made about Murdock. Usually I critique ideas rather than people. Usually.

Mimi wrote:John T, the source was right there at 1:42, same as all the other sources that were right there all along. She even provided an image of the original fragment and an English translation and cited DSS fragment 4Q120. What more could one want?

I tend to agree with the Robert Tulip quote on this, I can appreciate Murdock's work and the fact that she's a pioneer on the subject of astrotheology and has the courage to be willing to make mistakes from time to time. It is a massive undertaking for sure. If it were easy, everybody would do it. It seems the critics just want to 'poison the well' to ruin any legitimate discussion of astrotheology as well as ruin the reputation and credibility of any body who tries taking on the subject. I have yet to see a legitimate objective discussion on astrotheology without a troll coming in to antagonize and ruin the discussion.

On that note, I do not see any "mistakes" here.

Jesus Christ, Sun of Righteousness

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faILHU82-Cw

@Mimi,

You seem not to understand the problem. I would like to know the source of the saying: "Jesus Christ God from God Iao".

As far as I know it doesn't come from the Torah, Septuagint, New Testament or the Dead Sea Scrolls. Perhaps it comes from Gnostic writings but Acharya S. does not make it clear. Can you?

If you can't verify it then perhaps you should question why you want to be a troll for Acharya S.?

John T

John T wrote:Now that got my ears to perk up! Where did that come from? It is was not clear to me what her source was but alongside that is the caption; "...among the Judaeans...the God [was] called by the name IAO."...Diodorus Siculus (1.94).

Did that come from the "Bibliotheca Historica"? If so, can anyone provide a link as well as a cut & past to confirm it?
Seems I'm fresh out of copies of the works of Diodorus Siculus.

Diodorus Siculus, Library of History (i.e., Bibliotheca Historica), 1.94.2

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/R ... s/1D*.html
Also among several other peoples tradition says that this kind of a device was used and was the cause of much good to such as believed it. Thus it is recorded that among the Arians Zathraustes44 claimed that the Good Spirit gave him his laws, among the people known as the Getae who represent themselves to be immortal Zalmoxis45 asserted the same of their common goddess Hestia, and among the Jews Moyses referred his laws to the god who is invoked as Iao.46 They all did this either because they believed that a conception which would help humanity was marvellous and wholly divine, or because they held that the common crowd would be more likely to obey the laws if their gaze were directed towards the majesty and power of those to whom their laws were ascribed.c
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44 This form of the name is much nearer to the old Iranian form, Zarathustra, than the later corruption Zoroaster.
45 Herodotus (4.93 ff.) gives more details about Zalmoxis, or Gebeleïzis, as he also calls him, and the Getae "who pretend to be immortal." Strabo (7.3.5) calls him Zamolxis and makes him a former slave of Pythagoras, a story already known to Herodotus and rejected by him.
46 This pronunciation seems to reflect a Hebrew form Yahu; cp. Psalms 68.4: "His name is Jah."
c Signally missing in this catalogue is the Roman king Numa, who claimed that his laws had been dictated to him by the nymph Egeria (the classic locus is Livy, I.19.5). It's interesting to watch Diodorus omit this example, which would instantly have come to the mind of every one of his readers.

John T wrote:During her music video: "Jesus Christ, Sun of Righteousness" (around the 1:42 minute mark) there is a screen shot with Greek words saying: "Jesus Christ God from God Iao".

John T wrote:I would like to know the source of the saying: "Jesus Christ God from God Iao".

As would I.