Is 'Serious Scholarship' Biased in Favor of Historicity?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
outhouse
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Re: Is 'Serious Scholarship' Biased in Favor of Historicity?

Post by outhouse »

Peter Kirby wrote:Well if we assume that Paul (someone writing before the fall of the temple) wrote 1 Cor 11, 1 Cor 15:3-11 and Gal 1:18-19, then it's not exactly nuts to suggest that there was a guy claiming to know some guys who knew a Jesus, who they worshiped as their cultic founder. .
Its my position, any possible witnesses were just those who witnessed him hanging on a cross by an entry way.

I doubt anything goes back to any Aramaic follower or even someone who heard him.


I think all the traditions were developed in Hellenism far removed from events.


But realize its just my opinion.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Is 'Serious Scholarship' Biased in Favor of Historicity?

Post by neilgodfrey »

neilgodfrey wrote:
outhouse wrote: Two widely accepted historical facts

Almost all modern scholars consider his baptism and crucifixion to be historical facts
Can you tell us why "almost all modern scholars" consider each of these to be "historical facts"?
Outhouse -- you may have missed this. I was hoping you would reply. I don't think it's a difficult question but if you are not sure of the answer do let me know.
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outhouse
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Re: Is 'Serious Scholarship' Biased in Favor of Historicity?

Post by outhouse »

neilgodfrey wrote:
neilgodfrey wrote:
outhouse wrote: Two widely accepted historical facts

Almost all modern scholars consider his baptism and crucifixion to be historical facts
Can you tell us why "almost all modern scholars" consider each of these to be "historical facts"?
Outhouse -- you may have missed this. I was hoping you would reply. I don't think it's a difficult question but if you are not sure of the answer do let me know.
Baited question.


Do you accept Paul and John the Baptist as historical people, that existed in the time and place most attribute?
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Is 'Serious Scholarship' Biased in Favor of Historicity?

Post by Peter Kirby »

outhouse wrote:
Peter Kirby wrote:Well if we assume that Paul (someone writing before the fall of the temple) wrote 1 Cor 11, 1 Cor 15:3-11 and Gal 1:18-19, then it's not exactly nuts to suggest that there was a guy claiming to know some guys who knew a Jesus, who they worshiped as their cultic founder. .
Its my position, any possible witnesses were just those who witnessed him hanging on a cross by an entry way.

I doubt anything goes back to any Aramaic follower or even someone who heard him.


I think all the traditions were developed in Hellenism far removed from events.


But realize its just my opinion.
Very refreshing to hear things properly qualified. I try to do the same myself. :)

At this point you have to ask how important is it that people like Apollos and Cephas and Paul *actually heard about a guy hanging on a cross*. How can critical scholars be ready to black-vote large amounts of the Gospels but unwilling to doubt that Paul needed a historical reminiscence for believing in the crucifixion / sacrifice of his lord and savior?
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
Bernard Muller
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Re: Is 'Serious Scholarship' Biased in Favor of Historicity?

Post by Bernard Muller »

to MrMacSon,
The definition of *primary-source*, in relation to the Historical Method, does entail 'contemporaneous', Bernard.
The definition of primary sources in Wikipedia is not directly associated with the historical method. Furthermore we have: "Similar definitions are used in library science, and other areas of scholarship, although different fields have somewhat different definitions."

However the Princeton definition for "primary sources" makes me reconsider:
In order to eliminate confusion, and certainly not willing to insinuate any of the earliest Christian texts were written by eyewitnesses of Jesus (which I dispelled all over my website), I will replace "primary sources" by "primary or/and earliest sources".
I keep "primary" because I used the Pauline epistles to show the evolution of Christology through his epistles, Paul's public life and travels, inner Paul himself, etc.
And for the gospels, because through them, I analysed the motivation, authorship & dating from their internal evidence.

Cordially, Bernard
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MrMacSon
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Re: Is 'Serious Scholarship' Biased in Favor of Historicity?

Post by MrMacSon »

MrMacSon wrote:The definition of *primary-source*, in relation to the Historical Method, does entail 'contemporaneous', Bernard.
Bernard Muller wrote:The definition of primary sources in Wikipedia is not directly associated with the historical method.
Bernard, in my post I quoted the Wikipedia entry on the Historical Method which has a link to the definition of Primary Source.
Last edited by MrMacSon on Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Is 'Serious Scholarship' Biased in Favor of Historicity?

Post by MrMacSon »

Bernard Muller wrote:
In order to eliminate confusion, and certainly not willing to insinuate any of the earliest Christian texts were written by eyewitnesses of Jesus (which I dispelled all over my website), I will replace "primary sources" by "primary or/and earliest sources".

I keep "primary" because I used the Pauline epistles to show the evolution of Christology through his epistles, Paul's public life and travels, inner Paul himself, etc.

And for the gospels, because through them, I analysed the motivation, authorship & dating from their internal evidence.
I think you're operating outside the principles of the Historical Method, b/c use of *primary sources* does 'insinuate any of the earliest Christian texts were written by eyewitnesses of Jesus'.

I think you should only use "earliest sources", or perhaps 'commentary' or 'narratives' in relation to the Pauline or Gospel texts.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Is 'Serious Scholarship' Biased in Favor of Historicity?

Post by neilgodfrey »

outhouse wrote: Two widely accepted historical facts

Almost all modern scholars consider his baptism and crucifixion to be historical facts
neilgodfrey wrote:Can you tell us why "almost all modern scholars" consider each of these to be "historical facts"?

Outhouse -- you may have missed this. I was hoping you would reply. I don't think it's a difficult question but if you are not sure of the answer do let me know.
outhouse wrote:Baited question.


Do you accept Paul and John the Baptist as historical people, that existed in the time and place most attribute?
I am not asking what you personally believe. Nor am I asking you about the historical existence of Jesus. And yes, I accept Paul as a historical person and am willing to assume the historicity of JB for the purposes of my question.

I am simply asking if you are aware of the simple reason why "almost all modern scholars" consider two particular events in the life of Jesus to be historical facts.

If you do indeed know the answer then you also know the reason has nothing in common with the reasons most scholars accept the historicity of Paul and JB and as I said, I am willing to accept the historicity of both persons for the sake of the question.

You are suggesting we are being foolish if we don't agree with most scholars who believe Jesus really was baptised by JB and was crucified. So surely you must know the simple reason most scholars say these two events are historical.

But if you don't know then tell me and I'll tell you the reason.
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Bernard Muller
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Re: Is 'Serious Scholarship' Biased in Favor of Historicity?

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Stephan,
2. you have the imagination and insight of a watermelon.
Thank you for the insult :lol:
Imagination is not a substitute for evidence. An investigator cannot let his imagination run wild and any "imagined" theory has to rest on solid evidence. In the domain of the beginning of Christianity, better curb your imagination and rely on the evidence.
You are not the first one who accused me to be unimaginative: Doherty did that.
But when I used long ago an expression like "can be imagined" on FRDB, I had Doherty's mythicists ridiculing me because I allegedly used imagination. You cannot win!
But a big part of my methodology is not to imagine things (which I would love to do, unrestrained) and I stick to that. As far as insight is concerned, I have lot of insight due to my understanding of the beginning of Christianity. Maybe not the same insight than you have!
3. you've spent considerable effort understanding the New Testament some of which is occasionally interesting but in light of (1) and (2) yours cannot be considered a top tier site.
I already explained that a lack of knowledge of Greek is not a huge handicap because of the tools readily available on the internet, except if you want to get fancy. My main goal here in consulting these tools is not to make errors due to misleading translations. I am also very keen about the tense of verbs.
Anyway translations by Greek experts is not an exact science. Very often they come with significantly different renditions from the same source text. And any Greek word comes with many nuances and applications, and sometimes different meanings.
3. you've spent considerable effort understanding the New Testament some of which is occasionally interesting but in light of (1) and (2) yours cannot be considered a top tier site.
Because my position is very different of the ones of other historicists, I deserve my web site & blog to be considered, as an alternative to the "charismatic" Jesus, also presented by most as a teacher.
Top tier? I let my readers decide. Some of them put my website way high.
And among the many "historial Jesus" websites, mine is placed on the top 5 in google.com, often at #2 behind the Wikipedia site.

Cordially, Bernard
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Is 'Serious Scholarship' Biased in Favor of Historicity?

Post by Peter Kirby »

Bernard Muller wrote:And among the many "historial Jesus" websites, mine is placed on the top 5 in google.com, often at #2 behind the Wikipedia site.
Google customizes your search results based on your history of selections, geographic location, etc.

When I go incognito and search "historical Jesus" I get this:
But none of this is top tier. It's all junk really, even the #4 spot. Like, man, all I did was quote and summarize 30 or so books briefly, and I get #4 to the G. And I did it fresh out of high school.

Top Tier = published by a credentialed academic by a publishing house or in a journal, highly cited.

JP Meier and JD Crossan and EP Sanders are top tier. I'm not. You're not. It's not a debate. It's not even a direct statement about quality. My point regarded what someone might go to read first, if they were a rational individual seeking the best scholarship on the subject.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
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