Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

his simbolic name is too suspect to be a real name (see the example of 'Ebion')

http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... t=10#p1389

spin wrote:

Peter Kirby wrote:

andrewcriddle wrote:Is it true that Paulus is a previously unknown name ?

Mea culpa. Please forgive me. I have found examples in Plutarch. Paul is not a previously unknown name.



It appears in Plutarch as a Latin "gens" name; presumably as a regular name elsewhere, I am not sure. I made the mistake on analogy with the assertions that I've seen regarding the name Cephas without stopping to check. I hate misinformation, and for that I am sorry.

With a single "l"?

Παύλου
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... ection%3D2



http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... t=10#p1394

dewitness wrote:

Peter Kirby wrote:

andrewcriddle wrote:Is it true that Paulus is a previously unknown name ?

Mea culpa. Please forgive me. I have found examples in Plutarch. Paul is not a previously unknown name.



It appears in Plutarch as a Latin "gens" name; presumably as a regular name elsewhere, I am not sure. I made the mistake on analogy with the assertions that I've seen regarding the name Cephas without stopping to check. I hate misinformation, and for that I am sorry.

Paulus is also found in the writings of Josephus.

Antiquities of the Jews 19.1.14

....Now Claudius, his uncle, was gone out before, and Marcus Vinicius his sister's husband, as also Valellus of Asia; whom though they had had such a mind to put out of their places, the reverence to their dignity hindered them so to do; then followed Caius, with Paulus Arruntius...

http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... t=20#p1667

Diogenes the Cynic wrote:Paul is not even the only Paul in the New Testament. There's a Sergius Paulus in Acts 13. This guy has actually been confirmed by an inscription.



There are several other examples of Paullus (with two 'l's) as well.

The Pauline author only calls himself Paul, never Saul, so Paul is earlier in the literature than Saul, and Saul is attested only in Acts.

That doesn't mean Paulus couldn't be a nickname, though. It might be intentionally self-effacing (calling himself "small"), or it could have been a nickname. I have actually mused over a personal hypothesis (probably harebrained), that Paul might have been of small stature and possibly even a dwarf. I have wondered this (and I am not arguing for it, just wondering if its possible), not only because of the name, but also because of the story he tells about being lowered in a basket, his self identification as an "abortion" (or a premature birth) and his allusion to some kind of unidentified physical malady (the "thorn in my flesh"). I think this sounds like somebody who seems to be addressing a visible physical condition or abnormality, and a nickname which might have been analogous to something like "Pee Wee" or "Tiny" might indicate a diminutive physical stature (even by ancient standards). That's just wild speculation on my part, though.

I want only follow the advice of Richard attempting to raise the prior to doubt on Paul. If you dont' like the title of thread, you are free to change it. I dont' know what say, excuse me.

You are pointing to obvious. The anomaly is not the name ''Paul''. But the improbable coincidence ('too improbable to be a coincidence, therefore it's not a coincidence') that a guy named Paul will be punctually ''called the least in the kingdom of heaven'' by Matthew.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebion

Ebion (Greek: Εβιων) was the presumed eponymous founder of an early Christian group known as the Ebionites. The existent historical evidence indicates that the name "Ebionite" is derived from a Hebrew word, "ebion" (אביון) meaning "poor"[1][2] and thus not from someone's name. Ebion is generally seen today as a purely literary figure, whose reputed existence in antiquity was used to explain where the Ebionites got their inspiration. However, once he had been accepted as real, a small tradition developed around him that lasted in early learned Christian circles for a few centuries.

http://bcharchive.org/2/thearchives/showthreadfe3b.html

In Church History Eusebius did NOT claim the leader of the Ebionites was called Ebion.

"Church History 3.27.1
Quote:
1. The evil demon, however, being unable to tear certain others from their allegiance to the Christ of God, yet found them susceptible in a different direction, and so brought them over to his own purposes.

The ancients quite properly called these men Ebionites, because they held poor and mean opinions concerning Christ.
In the entire Church History by Eusebius, there is no leader of the Ebionites called Ebion.

It was supposedly their ideology of Christ that created the name of "Ebionites".

Origen also does not write that Ebion is a leader of a heretical cult. . .

Quote:
Here he has not observed that the Jewish converts have not deserted the law of their fathers, inasmuch as they live according to its prescriptions, receiving their very name from the poverty of the law, according to the literal acceptation of the word; for Ebion signifies "poor" among the Jews, and those Jews who have received Jesus as Christ are called by the name of Ebionites.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/04162.htm
:constern01:

http://bcharchive.org/2/thearchives/showthreadcf48.html

The extreme absence of early biographical information about Ebion, his status as a bare name, does rather suggest that he was deduced by back formation from the word Ebionite.

i.e., the argument is not limited to the "Significance" of "Ebion" as a name

IIRC, there are not any pre-Christian instance of a person named Ebion, but I'd have to double-check that... but that'd be another difference.

from The Apocalypse of Peter

For they shall come out of them - and my forgiveness of their transgressions, into which they fell through their adversaries, whose ransom I got from the slavery in which they were, to give them freedom that they may create an imitation remnant in the name of a dead man, who is Hermas, of the first-born of unrighteousness, in order that the light which exists may not believed by the little ones.
...
The Savior said, "For a time determined for them in proportion to their error they will rule over the little ones. And after the completion of the error, the never-aging one of the immortal understanding shall become young, and they (the little ones) shall rule over those who are their rulers.

Why Paul was a Benjamite?

"Benjamin is a ravenous wolf; in the morning he devours the prey, in the evening he divides the plunder."
(Genesis 49:27)

strictly linked with his being a persecutor then converted. And I'm assuming that at least the story of Paul persecutor is a legend, pace Carrier.

Giuseppe wrote:The anomaly is not the name ''Paul''. But the improbable coincidence ('too improbable to be a coincidence, therefore it's not a coincidence') that a guy named Paul will be punctually ''called the least in the kingdom of heaven'' by Matthew.

This is something, in general, that I have been meaning to write a blog post (or something) about at some point.

Whether or not you agree with the examples [like the connection you're making is so amazingly stunning?!], the point is that it is very easy to be able to do this kind of thing with a lot of real people... even with their real, birth-given names. (So this doesn't even show that 'Paul' is not a birth-given name....)

(1) Pastor Creflo "Dollar" gets a Gulfstream G650....

The Biggest Scam of All: Pastor Creflo Dollar Will Get His $65 Million Luxury Jet

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steve-sie ... 21170.html

(2) Richard "Pervo"

Pervo pleads guilty, sentenced in porn case

http://www.mndaily.com/2001/06/01/pervo ... -porn-case

(3) "Christopher" Columbus

"Christopher" means to "carry Christ" and is the patron saint of travellers.

(4) "Charles" Darwin

"Charles" means "free man."

(5) "Karl" Marx

"Karl" means "free man" also.

(6) "Napoleon" Bonaparte

"Napoleon" means "lion" (Italian).

(7) "Albert" Einstein

"Albert" means "noble, bright."

(8) "Richard" Arkwright (the Cotton King)

"Richard" means "powerful leader."

(9) "Adam" Smith (economist)

"Adam" means "earth" and "man."

(10) "James" Watt (inventor of the steam engine)

"James" means "he who supplants."

(11) "James" Clerk Maxwell (innovative physicist)

"James" means "he who supplants."

(12) "Rene" Descartes (father of modern philosophy)

"Rene" means "rebirth."

(13) "Dante" Alighieri (author of classics, wrote about the afterlife)

"Dante" means "lasting, enduring."

(14) "Abraham" Lincoln

"Abraham" means "father of a multitude."

(15) "Johann" "Sebastian" Bach

"Johann" means "God is gracious," and "Sebastian" means "revered."

(16) "Ferdinand" Magellan (his expedition circumnavigated the globe)

"Ferdinand" means "ready journey."

(17) "Gregor" "Mendel" (performed some of the first scientific biological experiments regarding heredity)

"Gregor" means "watchful, vigilant."

"Mendel" means "wisdom, learning."

(18) "Max" Planck

Discoverer of the "Planck length" ("the Planck length is, in principle, within a factor of 10, the shortest measurable length – and no theoretically known improvement in measurement instruments could change that") ... "Max"? Maximum? Get it? Eh?

(19) Need more funny RL names... some ironic or 'meaningful''?

http://www.11points.com/News-Politics/1 ... aign_Signs
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/1 ... 63681.html
http://happyplace.someecards.com/sympat ... -all-time/
http://metro.co.uk/2015/02/17/think-you ... r-5067260/

(20) "Peter" "Michael" "Kirby"

"Peter" is one of the twelve apostles--meaning, 'rock' or foundation.
"Michael" means, "who is like God?"
"Kirby" means "church town."

Yeah... like someone with that name could actually be running a Bible forum or could found an "Early Christian Writings" website...

Many name meanings copied from:
http://www.thinkbabynames.com/

Many people copied from the list of 1000 'people of the millenium':
http://rhsweb.org/library/1000PeopleMillennium.htm

"too improbable to be a coincidence, therefore it's not a coincidence"?

Puh-leeze.....

And Cefa/Peter? And Thomas/Twin? And Judas/Judea?

If I had read the name'Peter Kirby' ('rock church town') ONLY in allegory/fiction or in apologetical Christian blog (about a local church or something of kind) that use that name, can you give me the right to discuss the possibility of his not-being a real name of a real person creator of these same things?

I see that the examples listed from you are very vague in comparing with smallness/greatness Matthean metaphor behind the name Paul.

Giuseppe wrote:And Cefa/Peter? And Thomas/Twin? And Judas/Judea?

If I had read the name'Peter Kirby' ('rock church town') ONLY in allegory/fiction or in apologetical Christian blog (about a local church or something of kind) that use that name, can you give me the right to discuss the possibility of his not-being a real name of a real person creator of these same things?

You can discuss the possibility. I'm just wondering how we can nudge it above a possibility.

(And if we can't, how can we possibly know "why" it was invented... without first knowing "that" it actually was?)

In case of Paul (in reference to case raised from his name) we have:

1) the hostile metaphor of Matthew against the free-Torah ''least''.

2) a presumed author of letters that really did all that he could in order to realize precisely that simbolism behind his name - and ONLY THAT.

Pure coincidence?