Why was invented Paul?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Bernard Muller
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Re: Why was invented Paul?

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Peter,
Yeah IDK what that's about exactly.

Other than that you've rubbed Carrier the wrong way, apparently, or that Carrier doesn't appreciate your manner of presentation.
I rubbed Carrier many times (as on my blog and his) against his views. But that's not a reason of treating my postings this way, more so when I agree with him on that particular issue. Rejecting with insulting ways my observations supporting his case with no specific explanations does show a bad side to his character for everyone to see. There are times I feel sorry for him.

Cordially, Bernard
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Giuseppe
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Re: Why was invented Paul?

Post by Giuseppe »

About this logic
(1) If A, then B.
(2) ~B.
(3) Therefore, ~A.
there is also a crisis created by a couple of verses in the Pauline corpus: Rom 15:19 & 2 Cor 12:12, where Paul himself claims to have performed miracles and signs, and in the latter instance he specifically calls the Corinthians as witnesses to ''his'' miracles.
How do you answer?

1) Paul performed miracles, like Jesus?
2) did he convince the Corinthians that he had performed miracles before their very eyes?
3) the mere invention of a super-apostle?

I suspect that Carrier & Kirby would choose the point 2, because what they are doing is a kind of rationalization of all prima facie surprising claims by Paul.

About the case of name, for example, for Carrier it's probable that a guy labelled himself, after baptism, with the nick Paul in order to persuade others of his humility and to gain consensus & power. So, if you believe in a historical Paul, then you should believe him is a moral monster, a lier, a mere usurper of consensus (without to lower your priors, even).

The same silence about Jesus in Paulines is rationalized by Carrier saying that Jesus was at time only a revelatory character, but who says that that silence could be another sign of invention of epistles? In Mcn & in Mark, for example, no one that sees the 'historical' Jesus is able to recognize him, therefore it would be rather natural to expect that the only person who recognizes Jesus for the angel that he is really would be just the super-apostle Paul, by betraying no clues of knowledge of an apparent, illusory Jesus kata sarka. But this would be expected if the epistles were marcionite in origin.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Why was invented Paul?

Post by Peter Kirby »

Giuseppe wrote:I suspect that Carrier & Kirby would choose
what they are doing is a kind of rationalization
And what is it that you are doing, Giuseppe?

Are you convincing many people? Perhaps you've convinced yourself.

Is your reasoning sound? Perhaps you think so.

In the long run, though, "Carrier" and "Kirby" are completely inconsequential to the subject. People will be talking about this subject long after the names "Carrier" and "Kirby" are mostly forgotten. It's the mark of a small mind to make a discussion of reality, of facts, of history, and so on into a discussion of contemporary personalities.

Can you perhaps write something that is actually convincing because it actually uses sound reasoning, actually based on the details of the subject at hand, and actually using a reasonable approach to these materials, thus actually showing why a conclusion is true? That would be a welcome change of pace.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
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Giuseppe
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Re: Why was invented Paul?

Post by Giuseppe »

I attempt.

1) Richard has already explained why it's more probable that a guy choosed the name 'Paul' (if he existed in 50 CE) than he was named 'Paul' from birth (if he existed in 50 CE).

2) I'm assuming that my readers are all conscious that the names ''Saul'', ''Tarsus'', ''Paul persecutor'', etc, are all fictions of Acts.

3) Now, Richard replied me that, in order to explain the reason of choosing the nickname ''Paul'', that guy hides pratically a great Will To Power: he masked his ambition behind the nickname ''Small''. Richard says that this is expected by an apologist and 'Paul' was an apologist.

4) against the point 3, I say instead: are you conscious that you are accusing the guy named 'Paul' to have a moral defect? That you are accusing a man existed 2000 years ago raising against him a moral accuse? Free to do so, but you should pay a little price in terms of priors against your hypothesis. Because a historian of Antiquity cannot utter moral views on this or that figura.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Why was invented Paul?

Post by Peter Kirby »

Without a tin foil hat conspiracy theorist mindset, you could be satisfied with the birth name Paul as a coincidence, as it is extremely common for a birth name to have a meaning that can be interpreted as relevant given every aspect of someone and a willingness to read into vague meanings.

Your refusal to consider anything that would be called 'chance' or 'coincidence' ... Despite clearly having the details of the case and the banality of the phenomenon shown in this thread... displays your low intelligence. You're no better than an idiot who sees Jesus on toast and calls that too unlikely to be anything but by design. Worse in fact; this kind of coincidence that you scoff at is extremely common.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
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Giuseppe
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Re: Why was invented Paul?

Post by Giuseppe »

Note that you are saying a view different from that of Richard Carrier, that, at contrary of you, recognizes the great symbolic value behind the nickname ''Paul'' and his obvious meaning at light of Paul's actions.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Why was invented Paul?

Post by Giuseppe »

I have shown before in a comment that existed Ebion historicists (Epiphanius, for example).

The 1 Apocalypse of Peter shows a Christian group called ''the one littles''.

If you doubt about Ebion a priori via name, why no doubt about Paul via name, too?

Only because 7 letters are called paulines?


I modified this comment adding what follows:

And I wrote this

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1607&start=30#p36820

in reaction to your point:
(8) Because the very description implies fame of a sort, the actual first such person would probably end up being the most renowned later.
and especially about Galatians (assuming you agree at least with Neil about the interpolation of parts relative to Paul persecutor in Gal 1) I wrote this:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1607&start=40#p36824

Please reply me on these points, also. Very thanks.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Why was invented Paul?

Post by Giuseppe »

Last thougths about the nickname affair.

I wonder if it's possible to see links between the name ''Paul'' and the more generic Gnostic myth.

But then I realized one thing, thanks this comment of Stuart Waugh:
The Marcionite depiction of Paul is always authoritative, never passive, never delegating, never recognizing any equals.All self-deprecation and belittling are from later Catholic strata, including that statement about Paul being an "abortion." In contrast we have a presentation in the Marcionite text of divinely sanctioned birth of Paul in Galatians 1:15-16 which fits the Marcionite view of this special Apostle.

"When it pleased God, who separated (ἀφορίσας) me from my mothers womb, to reveal his son in me that I might preach him among the gentiles, I did not immediately consult flesh and blood."

Paul's birth is one so special God separates (ἀφορίσας) him from other men for a special notice, lofty position. This is the same word used in Romans 1:1 (ἀφωρισμένος) by the redactor to announce Paul's now Catholic mission (see also Acts 13:2). It shows an importance of the mission. But for Marcion that importance is from birth.

Hardly an abortion, and hardly the least of the Apostles, which we see in Galatians 2:6.
(source: http://sgwau2cbeginnings.blogspot.com/2 ... 9472567524 )

According to marcionite theology, the human people are product of Demiurg, body & spirit. Nothing is from Verus Deus.

While for Gnostics in general, only the Spirit, at least for pneumatic people, has a divine origin.

The marcionite are non Gnostics - it's often said - insofar they regarded the true God totally distant from this world and from his inhabitants.

but with one exception: PAUL.

Assuming the Stuart's words above, it's possible to find an explanation for the invention of name Paul.

For Marcion, the man called 'Paul' is the only man who has within himself the divine spark of the Son, in a Gnostic manner.

Therefore:

Why the Marcionites called ''Paul'' their hero, if he was not for them the last of the apostles nor the weak and sick physically (in apparent contradiction to all I say in this thread)?

Now I can realize partially the answer.

''Paul'' alludes to the divine spark that has been embedded in the body of the man called Paul.

The mission of the divine spark is to return to its divine source, leaving the body in which it was trapped since birth of that body.

Under this light, are more true these words of Dr. Detering:
Moreover, that the name Paul could already be conceived in a figurative sense by the writer of the Pauline letters can be clearly seen in 1 Cor 15:9, where “Paul” speaks of himself as the last and the smallest, like a “miscarriage” as it were. B. Bauer correctly commented about this: “He is the last, the unexpected, the conclusion, the dear nestling. Even his Latin name, Paul, expresses smallness, which stands in contrast to the majesty to which he is elevated by grace in the preceding passages of the letter.”
Bauer rightly calls attention to the theological significance in the concept of smallness. In fact, beyond Bauer, who did not yet have this connection in view, one must consider that precisely for the Marcionites—and obviously already for the Simonians as well, to whom this goes back—the word “Paul” expressed everything that constituted the core of their theology and for which the “letters of Paul” provide continuous testimony. Where is the freely occurring, unannounced and unconditioned, election by grace better illustrated than precisely by the inferior, the incomplete, by a child, by a small one?
(The Falsified Paul, p.146-147)

The marcionites betray their gnostic origin (or sincretism) limiting to only the man called Paul the gnostic dualism between body and spirit.


Note that Paul is not a Jew for marcionites.

Then I can see the separationism of Cerinthus or the adoptionism in Mark as the natural reaction to marcionite partial deification of Paul.

To have the 'Son in me' is not more Paul, but the man Jesus, son of Joseph and Mary, who is called Christ.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Why was invented Paul?

Post by MrMacSon »

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Is Galatians a Marcionite texts??

Galatians 1:15-16 (ESV)
15 But when he who had set me apart before I was born,a and who called me by his grace, 16 was pleased to reveal his Son tob me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone
  • a Greek: set me apart from my mother's womb
    b Greek: in
Paul's divinity is different to Jesus's. Perhaps it reflects something like the later Arian v Catholic dispute?


Acts 13 is weird, for all the names, such as the "certain magician, a Jewish false prophet named Bar-Jesus"; among other things, such as the order of events, and the mention of a second 'magician' seemingly in opposition to 'Saul'.

Acts 13 (ESV)
Barnabas and Saul Sent Off
13 Now there were in the church at Antioch prophets and teachers, Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen a lifelong friend of Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. 2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” 3 Then after fasting and praying they laid their hands on them and sent them off.

Barnabas and Saul on Cyprus
4 So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia, and from there they sailed to Cyprus. 5 When they arrived at Salamis, they proclaimed the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews. And they had John to assist them. 6 When they had gone through the whole island as far as Paphos, they came upon a certain magician, a Jewish false prophet named Bar-Jesus. 7 He was with the proconsul, Sergius Paulus, a man of intelligence, who summoned Barnabas and Saul and sought to hear the word of God. 8 But Elymas the magician (for that is the meaning of his name) opposed them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith. 9 But Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked intently at him 10 and said, “You son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, full of all deceit and villainy, will you not stop making crooked the straight paths of the Lord? 11 And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon you, and you will be blind and unable to see the sun for a time.”


21 Then they asked for a king, and God gave them Saul the son of Kish, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, for forty years. 22 And when he had removed him, he raised up David to be their king, of whom he testified and said, ‘I have found in David the son of Jesse a man after my heart, who will do all my will.’ 23 Of this man's offspring God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus, as he promised.
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It's like two current stories are being conflated with an OT story.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Why was invented Paul?

Post by MrMacSon »

.
This is interesting -
Giuseppe wrote:
''Paul'' alludes to the divine spark that has been embedded in the body of the man called Paul.

The mission of the divine spark is to return to its divine source, leaving the body in which it was trapped since birth of that body.

Under this light, are more true these words of Dr. Detering:
Moreover, that the name Paul could already be conceived in a figurative sense by the writer of the Pauline letters can be clearly seen in 1 Cor 15:9, where “Paul” speaks of himself as the last and the smallest, like a “miscarriage” as it were. B. Bauer correctly commented about this:

list]“He is the last, the unexpected, the conclusion, the dear nestling. Even his Latin name, Paul, expresses smallness, which stands in contrast to the majesty to which he is elevated by grace in the preceding passages of the letter.”[/list]
Bauer rightly calls attention to the theological significance in the concept of smallness. In fact, beyond Bauer, who did not yet have this connection in view, one must consider that precisely for the Marcionites—and obviously already for the Simonians as well, to whom this goes back—the word “Paul” expressed everything that constituted the core of their theology and for which the “letters of Paul” provide continuous testimony. Where is the freely occurring, unannounced and unconditioned, election by grace better illustrated than precisely by the inferior, the incomplete, by a child, by a small one?


(The Falsified Paul, pp.146-147)
The marcionites betray their gnostic origin (or sincretism) limiting to only the man called Paul the gnostic dualism between body and spirit.

Then I can see the separationism of Cerinthus (or the adoptionism in Mark) as the natural reaction to marcionite partial deification of Paul.

To have the 'Son in me' is not more Paul, but the man Jesus, son of Joseph and Mary, who is called Christ.
Though I would say "to have 'the Son in me' is" an alternative theology.

and I'd say - The redactors acknowledge gnostic origins (or sincretism) through the man called Paul the gnostic dualism between body and spirit.
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