The Jesus Wars Go Thermonuclear

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: The Jesus Wars Go Thermonuclear

Post by Peter Kirby »

Bernard Muller wrote:
The onus is on the non-'mythicist' in this case
OK, I'll take that onus: a non-mythicist's reading:
Paul said James is "the brother of the Lord" (Gal 1:19). "Lord" is Jesus, according to Gal 1:3. Therefore Jesus had a brother. According to 1 Cor 9:5 ("brothers of the Lord"), Jesus had other brothers ("Lord" is Jesus according to 1 Cor 9:1)
Jesus having a brother called James is confirmed by Josephus' Antiquities.
Jesus having brothers, including one named James, is confirmed by gMark.
Paul had Jesus as an earthly human in the past, as in Ro 1:3, 9:4-5 & Gal 3:16, 4:4.

Do I have to prove the above verses & passages are written in the aforementioned Pauline epistles and 'Antiquities' and gMark?

Cordially, Bernard
I respect the fact that you at least own your arguments...

(1) Gal 1:19 - yes, you should consider the likelihood that this was one of the Catholic additions to the Pauline epistles.

(2) 1 Cor 9:5 - you need not just consider the meaning of the term "Lord," unqualified, but also the meaning of the phrase "brothers of the Lord." There is more than one interpretation of that phrase, even if the term "Lord" refers to Christ Jesus.

(3) Ant. 20.200 - obviously, the Antiquities has been interpolated with material about Jesus and reference to Christ. Swallowing Ant. 20.200 is like eating a turd sandwich that is confirmed 90% turd with a 10% margin of error. It requires a fortified gut and questionable patience (and that's being charitable).

(4) Rom 1:3 -- yes, you should consider the likelihood that this was one of the Catholic additions to the Pauline epistles.

(5) Gal 3:16 -- yes, you should consider the likelihood that this was one of the Catholic additions to the Pauline epistles.

(6) Gal 4:4 -- yes, you should consider the likelihood that this was one of the Catholic additions to the Pauline epistles.

It would help if you reconsidered the way that you ask the question in the first place, as your method seems to guide you to uncritical acceptance of the state of the texts that you reference.

First, you should ask how likely it is that there would be modifications to the Antiquities and to Paul's letters if the hypothesis is true. I suggest that it is fairly likely, as a conditional: if the hypothesis is true, then it is fairly likely that the Antiquities and Paul's letters would be reworked as they were, respectively, preserved by Christians and added to the Christian canon.

Second, with that out of the way, you should realize that the evidence with the most discriminatory power does not concern whether the modern printed Bibles that you read in English have these references (... or the Greek the translators used). The evidence with the most discriminatory power, to distinguish between hypotheses, concerns whether these texts have been reworked and revised in ways that reflect the Catholic belief about who Jesus was.

Accordingly, you haven't won the argument. You haven't even started to work on the real problems that could potentially lead to a solution or knowledge. The real problems concern the state of the texts as texts and how they have been transmitted or what they were based on.

It has been my own work on the details of these problems -- starting with Josephus, proceeding through the Marcionite shorter readings that you and Michael dismiss with nary a moment's hesitation, and including a recent consideration of the text of the Ascension of Isaiah -- that has pushed me away from the naive readings based on an acceptance of the textus receptus that I once shared with you.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
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Re: The Jesus Wars Go Thermonuclear

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Peter,
(1) Gal 1:19 - yes, you should consider the likelihood that this was one of the Catholic additions to the Pauline epistles.
Can you prove that likelihood?
(2) 1 Cor 9:5 - you need not just consider the meaning of the term "Lord," unqualified, but also the meaning of the phrase "brothers of the Lord." There is more than one interpretation of that phrase, even if the term "Lord" refers to Christ Jesus.
According to Gal 1:19, theses "brothers of the Lord" were blood brothers of Jesus. No interpretation necessary. So what are your favorite interpretations?
(3) Ant. 20.200 - obviously, the Antiquities has been interpolated with material about Jesus and reference to Christ. Swallowing Ant. 20.200 is like eating a turd sandwich that is confirmed 90% turd with a 10% margin of error. It requires a fortified gut and questionable patience (and that's being charitable).
Besides your rhetoric, why is it obviously an interpolation?
(4) Rom 1:3 -- yes, you should consider the likelihood that this was one of the Catholic additions to the Pauline epistles.
Can you prove that likelihood?
(5) Gal 3:16 -- yes, you should consider the likelihood that this was one of the Catholic additions to the Pauline epistles.
Can you prove that likelihood?
(6) Gal 4:4 -- yes, you should consider the likelihood that this was one of the Catholic additions to the Pauline epistles.
Can you prove that likelihood? Here I show how Gal 4:4 makes a lot of sense: http://historical-jesus.info/18.html

I got a few more verses for you to declare as likelihood of interpolations or subject to re-interpretations:
1 Cor 15:21, Ro 5:15, Ro 15:12, Ro 11:26-27 & Ro 9:31-33 (http://historical-jesus.info/19.html), 2 Cor 8:9, Heb 7:14 & Heb 2:14-17 & Heb 5:7 (http://historical-jesus.info/40.html)
First, you should ask how likely it is that there would be modifications to the Antiquities and to Paul's letters if the hypothesis is true. I suggest that it is fairly likely, as a conditional: if the hypothesis is true, then it is fairly likely that the Antiquities and Paul's letters would be reworked as they were, respectively, preserved by Christians and added to the Christian canon.
Just prove the "hypothesis" is true.
Second, with that out of the way, you should realize that the evidence with the most discriminatory power does not concern whether the modern printed Bibles that you read in English have these references (... or the Greek the translators used). The evidence with the most discriminatory power, to distinguish between hypotheses, concerns whether these texts have been reworked and revised in ways that reflect the Catholic belief about who Jesus was.
Just prove that (what I bolded).
Accordingly, you haven't won the argument. You haven't even started to work on the real problems that could potentially lead to a solution or knowledge. The real problems concern the state of the texts as texts and how they have been transmitted or what they were based on.
If you cannot prove that ALL the passages I indicated (inferring a historical Jesus) are either interpolations or subject to alternative (but not far-fetched) probable interpretations, or your mythicist hypothesis is true, I won the argument. Doubting the authenticity or normal reading of all these passages and invoking a mythicist hypothesis is just not good enough.
It has been my own work on the details of these problems -- starting with Josephus, proceeding through the Marcionite shorter readings that you and Michael dismiss with nary a moment's hesitation, and including a recent consideration of the text of the Ascension of Isaiah -- that has pushed me away from the naive readings based on an acceptance of the textus receptus that I once shared with you.
Marcionite shorter version (http://historical-jesus.info/53.html), Ascension of Isaiah (http://historical-jesus.info/100.html)? Did you ask yourself how much these texts are trustworthy enough about supporting your "hypothesis"?

Cordially, Bernard
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Peter Kirby
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Re: The Jesus Wars Go Thermonuclear

Post by Peter Kirby »

Bernard Muller wrote:If you cannot prove that ALL the passages I indicated (inferring a historical Jesus) are either interpolations or subject to alternative (but not far-fetched) probable interpretations, or your mythicist hypothesis is true, I won the argument.
Nonsense. :goodmorning:
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
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Re: The Jesus Wars Go Thermonuclear

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Peter,
You haven't answered my questions, not one of them.
If you can write what's below:
(3) Ant. 20.200 - obviously, the Antiquities has been interpolated with material about Jesus and reference to Christ. Swallowing Ant. 20.200 is like eating a turd sandwich that is confirmed 90% turd with a 10% margin of error. It requires a fortified gut and questionable patience (and that's being charitable).
You must have some strong arguments against the mention of James as the brother of Jesus in 'Antiquities':
What are they? (your imagery about turd is neither an argument, nor evidence)
Bernard Muller wrote:
If you cannot prove that ALL the passages I indicated (inferring a historical Jesus) are either interpolations or subject to alternative (but not far-fetched) probable interpretations, or your mythicist hypothesis is true, I won the argument.
Nonsense.
Why is it nonsense?

Cordially, Bernard
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Secret Alias
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Re: The Jesus Wars Go Thermonuclear

Post by Secret Alias »

He's such a fucking idiot.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Re: The Jesus Wars Go Thermonuclear

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Peter Kirby wrote:
Bernard Muller wrote:If you cannot prove that ALL the passages I indicated (inferring a historical Jesus) are either interpolations, or subject to alternative (but not far-fetched) probable interpretations, or your mythicist hypothesis is true, I won the argument.
Nonsense. :goodmorning:
I agree with Peter.

Bernard, this whole area is speculative; your emphasis on "prove or you lose" is part of the a fallacies of false choice (one of the subsets in that grouping).
  • http://www.seekfind.net/Fallacies_of_Ch ... gdLNvmqqko

    eg. the False Excluded Middle / No Middle Ground / Polarization Fallacy which occurs when two extreme positions are presented as an 'either/or' proposition, but [the proposition] excludes the middle ground of everything between the extremes.
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Re: The Jesus Wars Go Thermonuclear

Post by outhouse »

Secret Alias wrote:He's such a fucking idiot.
That may or may not be up for debate.

But I would take idiocy if the compass was pointed in the right direction.

As opposed to someone who thinks they possess superior intellect with a compass pointed backwards.


Not allegorically or metaphorically pointed in any specific direction.
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Re: The Jesus Wars Go Thermonuclear

Post by outhouse »

MrMacSon wrote:
Bernard, this whole area is speculative; your emphasis on "prove or you lose" is part of the a fallacies of false choice (one of the subsets in that grouping).
  • http://www.seekfind.net/Fallacies_of_Ch ... gdLNvmqqko

    eg. the False Excluded Middle / No Middle Ground / Polarization Fallacy which occurs when two extreme positions are presented as an 'either/or' proposition, but [the proposition] excludes the middle ground of everything between the extremes.

What you stated very well may be true.

But what if he is right?


The Galilean does have historicity even if a small amount and It is upon those in dissent to provide a replacement hypothesis that is not laughable.



But to concede, I think he could go about it better. So can I for that matter.
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Re: The Jesus Wars Go Thermonuclear

Post by Peter Kirby »

I have been 'quietly' pointing out bits and bobs here and there to flesh out a hypothesis regarding Christian origins. Currently it's spread over multiple forum posts and blog posts. Some of them were linked in the last blog post I made, "Why Not Talk About This Instead?"

http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... f=3&t=1458
http://peterkirby.com/marcions-shorter- ... -paul.html
http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... f=3&t=1824

Regarding Josephus, I have been nothing if not prolific. We've also danced this dance before.

http://peterkirby.com/category/non-christian-sources
http://earlychristianwritings.com/testimonium.html

I refuse to pay any respect to the idea that anyone's hypothesis gets a default presumption in its favor. I'm also short on time.

Does anyone have any ideas they'd like to see in a computer game about modern politics?

That's where my head is at most days.

Also, this Spring I will start studying Mathematics (again)... which should be fun, since you actually can prove something in Mathematics!

PS -- No, I don't link these as if anyone has to agree with me or as if I've "proven" the matter.

PPS -- yes, I still accept the colloquial "burden of proof" as a fixed phrase in the language. "Burden of preponderance of evidence" doesn't have the same ring to it.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
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Re: The Jesus Wars Go Thermonuclear

Post by MrMacSon »

outhouse wrote:
MrMacSon wrote: Bernard, this whole area is speculative; your emphasis on "prove or you lose" is part of the a fallacies of false choice (one of the subsets in that grouping).

eg. the False Excluded Middle / No Middle Ground / Polarization Fallacy which occurs when two extreme positions are presented as an 'either/or' proposition, but [the proposition] excludes the middle ground of everything between the extremes.
What you stated very well may be true.

But what if he is right?


The Galilean does have historicity even if a small amount, and It is upon those in dissent to provide a replacement hypothesis that is not laughable.
It is *the narratives about the Galilean* that have historicity.

It is an ethical principle of the Burden of Proof that those who aver must prove.


This is also a fallacy of false choice -
outhouse wrote: But I would take idiocy if the compass was pointed in the right direction.

As opposed to someone who thinks they possess superior intellect with a compass pointed backwards.

Not allegorically or metaphorically pointed in any specific direction.
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