Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

to DCHindley,
I think now Zechariah, in chapter 6, intended to have his 'anatole' understood as (figuratively) "bud", because of what follows "and he shall spring up from his stem". Of course, Zechariah was thinking about Zerubbabel (according to Zec 4:9). The stem refers to the Davidic royal lineage of that Zerubbabel, who was expected to produce a 'bud (a proto-king because leading the reconstruction of the temple). And of course Zechariah might have been inspired by Je 23:5, about an expected powerful Davidic king.

As for Philo, 'anatole' obviously had to have a different meaning, such as "Rises", as applied to Philo's heavenly deity.

Cordially, Bernard

DCHindley wrote:

TedM wrote:

Secret Alias wrote:Tsemach does not = branch. Stop repeating this.

So Branch is a mistranslation? I have to admit I have ignored most of what you have written here, and will continue to do so, as I've learned it is in my best interest. All I know is the NASB translation uses the word Branch. 'Rises' actually makes Carrier's point stronger, due to the resurrection connection to the Messiah.

Tsemach = 1. coll. growth, what sprouts; its fresh shoots; — 2. (the individual) shoot, bud: metaph. of Messianic king Je 23:5.

The LXX has Anatole. Ανατολή, ῆς, ἡ —1. rising of a star —2. rising of the sun, East, Orient [all stars and the sun appear to "rise" from the east and "set" in the west].

I think what is annoying Stephan is that the word tsemach does not properly mean "branch" (that would be "bad").

Everyone also thinks netzer means "branch, but it actually means "a shoot". A good concordance does wonders. I have always liked Robert Young's Analytical Concordance to the Bible (1879, based on the AV/KJV), and I think it is way more useful than Strong's.

Most modern translations (with a few significant exceptions) still give the word "branch", despite the shortcomings that you list. This feels like the sort of rendering that may have been set in motion by a very influential English translation or two many years ago, and from which subsequent translations did not stray far due to common usage by that time (especially given the potentially Messianic overtones). To wit, I believe both the Geneva Bible and the King James have "branch" at this point.

I have no special knowledge of what might gone into such a translation to begin with, but it seems possible that the translators were thinking in terms of a family tree from which a Messianic descendant might branch off (even the Old French branche whence the English seems to derive appears to bear the familial definition). But that is just an educated guess on my part.

Ben.

Bernard Muller wrote:Not a coincidence. It just happens Jesus son of Josedec has the same first name than the Jesus of Christians. "Jesus" was a very common name in ancient Israel.

Not as common as people seem to think, it appears. While the name Jesus was the 6th most popular male name, according to this source of over 2,600 references in writings an on ossuaries of the time the name Jesus appears only 3.8% of the time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talpiot_Tomb

If half of the males had the name Jesus I'd be more inclined to agree with you that it would not be strange at all (ie 'not a coincidence'). But with less than 1 out of 25 males named 'Jesus' , I would say that IF we have only a handful of actual names in the OT that one could feasably claim is being connected with the name of the Messiah, and one of them is Jesus, then it would not be expected that the actual name of the Messiah Christians believe in would also be Jesus if it was not an influencing factor in the origin story. Perhaps an examination of the possible names for the Messiah (Cyrus, David, etc.) would cause me to change my mind, but personally I see it as surprising.

The Artscroll English Tanach Stone Edition translates 3.8 and 6.12 as : My servant Zemah ( the flourishing one) and he will flourish in his place; he will build the Sanctuary of Hashem.


Chabad translates as: 8.Hearken, now, O Joshua the High Priest-you and your companions who sit before you, for they are men worthy of a miracle-for, behold! I bring My servant, the Shoot
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16207

Ben C. Smith wrote:I have no special knowledge of what might gone into such a translation to begin with, but it seems possible that the translators were thinking in terms of a family tree from which a Messianic descendant might branch off (even the Old French branche whence the English seems to derive appears to bear the familial definition). But that is just an educated guess on my part.

It wasn't clear to me whether you were referring to LXX translating tsemach as anatole, or the Geneva & KJV and those folling in train translating tsemach by "Branch", but I have to assume the latter. Yes, I would have to agree that their choices were influenced by popular beliefs about what had been "prophesized" about Jesus in Judean sacred books.

Now I was looking at this passage earlier today and wondered if the "shoot" represented someone to come later.

DCH (got as training session an hour away to go to tomorrow morning, so I must get some sleep)

DCHindley wrote:

Ben C. Smith wrote:I have no special knowledge of what might gone into such a translation to begin with, but it seems possible that the translators were thinking in terms of a family tree from which a Messianic descendant might branch off (even the Old French branche whence the English seems to derive appears to bear the familial definition). But that is just an educated guess on my part.

It wasn't clear to me whether you were referring to LXX translating tsemach as anatole, or the Geneva & KJV and those folling in train translating tsemach by "Branch", but I have to assume the latter.

Yes, definitely the latter.

I think everyone here agrees that the Servant/Branch is identified and isn't Jesus, but what is being proposed is the idea that it is possible that for one reason or another - including slightly different texts - the interpretation given by some to 6:11-14 was that the Branch was referring to Jesus, the guy given the crown, who actually ALSO helped rebuild the Temple (Ezra:2:2)

No , not at all,

Zemah is a person that builds the second temple, he is a descendant from David, one who is regularly called by Hashem : " My servant".
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=dfT ... le&f=false

I think everyone here agrees that the Servant/Branch is identified and isn't Jesus, but what is being proposed is the idea that it is possible that for one reason or another - including slightly different texts - the interpretation given by some to 6:11-14 was that the Branch was referring to Jesus, the guy given the crown, who actually ALSO helped rebuild the Temple (Ezra:2:2)

NOT just"Jesus", but "Jesus son of Josedec". Even if a man named "branch" is thought to be that Jesus, son of Josedec (a dead Jew long ago), there is no way he can be considered the same entity as the eternal Son of God of Philo. Confusing Jesus son of Josedec with Philo's Word of God & firstborn is absolutely impossible (except for Carrier's amazing discovery!).

"“Behold, the man named Rises!” is a very novel appellation indeed, if you consider it as spoken of a man who is compounded of body and soul. But if you look upon it as applied to that incorporeal being who in no respect differs from the divine image, you will then agree that the name of ‘Rises’ has been given to him with great felicity."
It is clear here Philo is only interested by the name "Rises" and found it very fitting for his incorporeal being. Prior to that, Philo separated the named man from "Rises" and applied that name (but not the man) to his Son of God.

In order to deduct: Jesus = "Rises" = incorporeal being from Philo & Zechariah, one would need to have incredibly small tunnel vision. First see only "incorporeal being" = 'anatole' from Confusion of tongues, XIV 62-63 (and nothing else!) and then from Zechariah 6 (wrongly) "Jesus" = 'anatole' (and nothing else). That's way too much to swallow for me.

Cordially, Bernard

Clavis Date Pole Ancient author Work Book Ch. § (p., l.) from
Zechariah 6, 12

CPG1076 - s. n.0

1 (1 pole(s))

Alexandria (1 ancient author(s))

Philo Alexandrinus (1 work(s))
Philo
Alexandrinus
De confusione linguarum (1)
Date: ca.1 - ca.50
Genre: -
Theme: Exegesis, Scripture Commentaries
Clavis: 0
Biblio:
KAHN J.G., Les oeuvres de Philon d'Alexandrie, 13, Paris 1963, 40-154.
§ 62 (p.74, l.13 - <) BP8
161 (1 pole(s))

Greek-speaking West (1 ancient author(s))

Iustinus martyr (1 work(s))
Iustinus
martyr
Dialogus cum Tryphone (3)
Date: ca.161 - ca.165
Genre: -
Theme: Apologetics
Clavis: 1076
Biblio:
ARCHAMBAULT G., Justin, Dialogue avec Tryphon, 2 t. (Textes et documents pour l'étude historique du christianisme), Paris 1909.
100 § 4 (p.122, l.17) BP1
106 § 4 (p.154, l.7) BP1
121 § 2 (p.224, l.1) BP1
208 (1 pole(s))

Africa (1 ancient author(s))

Tertullianus (1 work(s))
Tertullianus
Aduersus Valentinianos (1)
Date: ca.208 - ca.212
Genre: -
Theme: Faith
Clavis: 16
Biblio:
KROYMANN Aem., CCL 2 (1954), 753-778.
3 § 1 (p.754, l.16) BP1
220 (2 pole(s))

Greek-speaking West (1 ancient author(s))

Hippolytus Romanus (1 work(s))
Hippolytus
Romanus
In Psalmos (1)
Date: ca.220 - ca.250
Genre: -
Theme: Exegesis, Scripture Commentaries
Clavis: 1882
Biblio:
NAUTIN P., Le dossier d'Hippolyte et de Méliton, Paris 1953, 167-183.
§ 17 (p.181, l.8 - <) BP2
Unknown place (1 ancient author(s))

Hippolytus Romanus (?) (1 work(s))
Hippolytus
Romanus
(?)
In Prouerbia (1)
Date: ca.220 - ca.250
Genre: -
Theme: Exegesis, Scripture Commentaries
Clavis: 1883
Biblio:
RICHARD M., Les fragments du commentaire de S. Hippolyte sur les Proverbes de Salomon, Le Muséon 79 (1966), 75-94.
(p.87, l.18 - <) BP2
231 (1 pole(s))

Alexandria (1 ancient author(s))

Origenes (1 work(s))
Origenes
Commentarii in Iohannem (1)
Date: ca.231 - ca.248
Genre: -
Theme: Exegesis, Scripture Commentaries
Clavis: 1453
Biblio:
PREUSCHEN E., GCS 10 (1903), 3-480 ; 562-563.
32 § 316 (p.469, l.10) BP3
239 (1 pole(s))

Alexandria (1 ancient author(s))

Origenes (3 work(s))
Origenes
In Leuiticum homiliae XVI (latine interprete Rufino) (2)
Date: ca.239 - ca.242
Genre: -
Theme: Exegesis, Scripture Commentaries
Clavis: 1416
Biblio:
BAEHRENS W.A., GCS 29 (1920), 280-507 (y compris le fragment grec p. 332-334).
9 10 (p.438, l.21 - <) BP3
13 2 (p.469, l.3 - <) BP3
In librum Iudicum homiliae IX (latine interprete Rufino) (1)
Date: ca.239 - ca.242
Genre: -
Theme: Exegesis, Scripture Commentaries
Clavis: 1421
Biblio:
BAEHRENS W.A., GCS 30 (1921), 464-522.
8 1 (p.509, l.15 - <) BP3
In Numeros homiliae XXVIII (2nd éd.) (1)
Date: ca.239 - ca.242
Genre: -
Theme: Exegesis, Scripture Commentaries
Clavis: 1418
Biblio:
BAEHRENS W.A., GCS 30 (1921), 1-285.
15 1 (p.131, l.12 - < /) BP3
248 (1 pole(s))

Alexandria (1 ancient author(s))

Origenes (1 work(s))
Origenes
Commentarii in Matthaeum, libri X-XVII (1)
Date: ca.248 - ca.249
Genre: -
Theme: Exegesis, Scripture Commentaries
Clavis: 1450
Biblio:
KLOSTERMANN E., BENZ E., GCS 40 (1935).
16 3 (p.470, l.15 - <) BP3
300 (2 pole(s))

Greek historians (1 ancient author(s))

Eusebius Caesariensis (2 work(s))
Eusebius
Caesariensis
Generalis elementaria introductio (Eclogae Proph.) (2)
Date: ca.300 - ca.313
Genre: -
Theme: Exegesis, Scripture Commentaries
Clavis: 3475
Biblio:
PG 22 (1857), 1021-1261 ; 1272-1273.
3 23 (p.1148 - <) BP4
3 36 (p.1164 - <) BP4
Scholia in Ieremiam 2 (1)
Date: ca.300 - ca.339
Genre: -
Theme: Exegesis, Scripture Commentaries
Clavis: 3469
Biblio:
GHISLER M., In Ieremiam prophetam commentarii, 2, Lugduni 1623, 61 ; 73 ; 74 ; 118-119 ; 122 ; 137 ; 139 ; 560-561 ; 704 ; 831 ; 836 ; 837.
(p.560 - <) BP4
Palestine and Cyprus (1 ancient author(s))

Eusebius Caesariensis (2 work(s))
Eusebius
Caesariensis
Generalis elementaria introductio (Eclogae Proph.) (2)
Date: ca.300 - ca.313
Genre: -
Theme: Exegesis, Scripture Commentaries
Clavis: 3475
Biblio:
PG 22 (1857), 1021-1261 ; 1272-1273.
3 23 (p.1148 - <) BP4
3 36 (p.1164 - <) BP4
Scholia in Ieremiam 2 (1)
Date: ca.300 - ca.339
Genre: -
Theme: Exegesis, Scripture Commentaries
Clavis: 3469
Biblio:
GHISLER M., In Ieremiam prophetam commentarii, 2, Lugduni 1623, 61 ; 73 ; 74 ; 118-119 ; 122 ; 137 ; 139 ; 560-561 ; 704 ; 831 ; 836 ; 837.
(p.560 - <) BP4
301 (1 pole(s))

Unknown place (1 ancient author(s))

Hippolytus Romanus (Ps.) (1 work(s))
Hippolytus
Romanus
(Ps.)
In sanctum pascha (1)
Date: ca.301 - ca.399
Genre: -
Theme: Christian Mystery
Clavis: 1925
Biblio:
NAUTIN P., SC 27 (1950).
45 § 3 (p.167, l.6 - <) BP2
314 (2 pole(s))

Greek historians (1 ancient author(s))

Eusebius Caesariensis (2 work(s))
Eusebius
Caesariensis
Demonstratio evangelica (6)
Date: ca.314 - ca.322
Genre: -
Theme: Apologetics
Clavis: 3487
Biblio:
HEIKEL I.A., GCS 23 (1913), 2-496.
4 17 § 21 (p.199, l.20 - <) BP4
4 17 § 22 (p.199, l.25 - <) BP4
4 17 § 23 (p.200, l.1 - >) BP4
6 14 § 2 (p.267, l.31 - <) BP4
7 3 § 41 (p.344, l.26 - <) BP4
9 1 § 15 (p.406, l.20 - < >) BP4
Praeparatio euangelica (1)
Date: ca.314 - ca.322
Genre: -
Theme: Faith and Christian Reflection
Clavis: 3486
Biblio:
MRAS K., GCS 43,1 (1954) : livres 1 Ã 10 ; GCS 43,2 (1956) : livres 11 Ã 15.
11 15 § 5 (p.36, l.16 - *<) BP4
Palestine and Cyprus (1 ancient author(s))

Eusebius Caesariensis (2 work(s))
Eusebius
Caesariensis
Demonstratio evangelica (6)
Date: ca.314 - ca.322
Genre: -
Theme: Apologetics
Clavis: 3487
Biblio:
HEIKEL I.A., GCS 23 (1913), 2-496.
4 17 § 21 (p.199, l.20 - <) BP4
4 17 § 22 (p.199, l.25 - <) BP4
4 17 § 23 (p.200, l.1 - >) BP4
6 14 § 2 (p.267, l.31 - <) BP4
7 3 § 41 (p.344, l.26 - <) BP4
9 1 § 15 (p.406, l.20 - < >) BP4
Praeparatio euangelica (1)
Date: ca.314 - ca.322
Genre: -
Theme: Faith and Christian Reflection
Clavis: 3486
Biblio:
MRAS K., GCS 43,1 (1954) : livres 1 Ã 10 ; GCS 43,2 (1956) : livres 11 Ã 15.
11 15 § 5 (p.36, l.16 - *<) BP4
350 (1 pole(s))

Alexandria (1 ancient author(s))

Didymus Alexandrinus (3 work(s))
Didymus
Alexandrinus
Commentarii in Ecclesiasten 3-4,12 (1)
Date: ca.350 - ca.398
Genre: -
Theme: Exegesis, Scripture Commentaries
Clavis: 2555
Biblio:
GRONEWALD M., Didymos der Blinde, Kommentar zum Ecclesiastes (Tura-Papyrus), 2, Komm. zu Eccl. Kap. 3 - 4,12 (Papyrologische Texte und Abhandlungen 22), Bonn 1977.
73 § 6 (p.42, l.6 - <) BP7
Commentarii in Octateuchum et Reges (1)
Date: ca.350 - ca.398
Genre: -
Theme: Exegesis, Scripture Commentaries
Clavis: 2546
Biblio:
NAUTIN P., DOUTRELEAU L., SC 233 (1976).
§ 69 (p.172, l.15 - <) BP7
Fragmenta in Psalmos (2) (2)
Date: ca.350 - ca.398
Genre: -
Theme: Exegesis, Scripture Commentaries
Clavis: 2551
Biblio:
MUHLENBERG E., Psalmenkommentare aus der Katenenüberlieferung, 2 (Patristische Texte und Studien 16), Berlin - New York 1977.
§ 829 (p.139, l.22 - <) BP7
§ 1187 (p.315, l.28 - <) BP7
363 (1 pole(s))

Greece, Minor Asia (1 ancient author(s))

Basilius Caesariensis (1 work(s))
Basilius
Caesariensis
Homiliae in Psalmos (1)
Date: ca.363 - ca.378
Genre: -
Theme: Exegesis, Scripture Commentaries
Clavis: 2836
Biblio:
PG 29, 209-493.
(p.424 - <) BP5
372 (1 pole(s))

Greece, Minor Asia (1 ancient author(s))

Gregorius Nyssenus (1 work(s))
Gregorius
Nyssenus
In inscriptiones psalmorum (1)
Date: ca.372 - ca.381
Genre: -
Theme: Exegesis, Scripture Commentaries
Clavis: 3155
Biblio:
McDONOUGH J.A., Gregorii Nysseni opera, 5, Leiden 1962, 24-175.
2 5 (p.84, l.10) BP5
375 (1 pole(s))

Italy (1 ancient author(s))

Ambrosius Mediolanensis (1 work(s))
Ambrosius
Mediolanensis
De paradiso (1)
Date: ca.375 - ca.378
Genre: -
Theme: Undetermined
Clavis: 124
Biblio:
SCHENKL C., CSEL 32,1 (1897), 265-336.
3 § 23 (p.280, l.4 - V) BP6
377 (1 pole(s))

Italy (1 ancient author(s))

Ambrosius Mediolanensis (2 work(s))
Ambrosius
Mediolanensis
De fide ad Gratianum (1)
Date: ca.377 - ca.380
Genre: -
Theme: Christian life
Clavis: 150
Biblio:
FALLER O., CSEL 78 (1962).
5 8 § 108 (p.256, l.80 - < /) BP6
Expositio Euangelii secundum Lucam (1)
Date: ca.377 - ca.389
Genre: -
Theme: Exegesis, Scripture Commentaries
Clavis: 143
Biblio:
ADRIAEN M., CCL 14 (1957), 1-400.
3 § 22 (p.87, l.365 - <) BP6
386 (1 pole(s))

Italy (1 ancient author(s))

Ambrosius Mediolanensis (1 work(s))
Ambrosius
Mediolanensis
Expositio de Psalmo CXVIII (1)
Date: ca.386 - ca.390
Genre: -
Theme: Exegesis, Scripture Commentaries
Clavis: 141
Biblio:
PETSCHENIG M., CSEL 62 (1913, réimpr. 1962).
12 § 23 (p.264, l.18 - <) BP6
387 (1 pole(s))

Alexandria (1 ancient author(s))

Didymus Alexandrinus (1 work(s))
Didymus
Alexandrinus
Commentarii in Zachariam (10)
Date: ca.387 - ca.393
Genre: -
Theme: Exegesis, Scripture Commentaries
Clavis: 2549
Biblio:
DOUTRELEAU L., SC 83 (1962) : livre 1 ; SC 84 (1962) : livres 2 et 3 ; SC 85 (1962) : livres 4 et 5.
1 23 (p.246, l.13 -
1 57 (p.324, l.20 - <) BP7
2 101 (p.442, l.8 - <)) BP7
2 101 (p.444, l.21 - <) BP7
2 104 (p.452, l.31 - <) BP7
2 106 (p.454, l.6 - <) BP7
2 106 (p.456, l.32 - <) BP7
2 107 (p.458, l.21) BP7
2 108 (p.460, l.17 - <) BP7
5 370 (p.994, l.9 - <) BP7
391 (1 pole(s))

Italy (1 ancient author(s))

Ambrosius Mediolanensis (1 work(s))
Ambrosius
Mediolanensis
De institutione uirginis (1)
Date: ca.391 - ca.392
Genre: -
Theme: Christian life
Clavis: 148
Biblio:
GORI F., Sancti Ambrosii episcopi Mediolanensis opera 14,2,