Carrier proposes the NT Jesus based on Philo's Jesus angel

[iskander]

Are there folks here who are really suggesting that author of Zechariah 6:12 has in mind some sort of celestial being?

Isn't the main proposal & argument that Philo proposed some sort of contemporaneous celestial being?

No, actually I readily accept that Philo understood this to be an allegory for how the Godhead works, understood in a Platonic sort of way. Zechariah, on the other hand, I do not think had any such preconception(s).

That's my point - this is about what Philo 'understood' (by 'contemporaneous' I meant *contemporaneous to Philo*)

German Soldier: Verrry eenteresting... (Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In)

In 60 Philo uses the Greek word 'anatole 'as meaning East. and the land of Shinar that became the Tower of Babel.

60. Τοὺς δὲ συνομοσαμένους ἐπ’ ἀδικήμασιν “ἀπὸ ἀνατολῶν” φησι “κινήσαντας εὑρεῖν πεδίον ἐν τῇ γῇ Σεναὰρ κἀκεῖ κατοικῆσαι”

Unjust people from the East settled down in Shinar. Philo equates good with sunlight and vice with darkness, which reminds one of Plato

In 61 he gives an example of the good .God planted a celestial paradise in the East as anatole
61. παράδειγμα τοῦ μὲν προτέρου τόδε· “καὶ ἐφύτευσεν ὁ θεὸς παράδεισον ἐν Ἐδὲμ κατὰ ἀνατολάς

In 62 a prophet has said " "Behold, a man whose name is the East!" . The man is associated with good, and Philo explains that the name is "of great felicity " because he is like the first Adam who is the divine image without polluting matter .


In 63 God " has caused him to spring up as the eldest son, whom, in another passage, he calls the firstborn". This first born of God is Israel. Israel is God's first born, Exodus 4:22

What do think ?

[MrMacSon]

In 60 Philo uses the Greek word 'anatole 'as meaning East. and the land of Shinar that became the Tower of Babel -

• 60. Τοὺς δὲ συνομοσαμένους ἐπ’ ἀδικήμασιν “ἀπὸ ἀνατολῶν” φησι “κινήσαντας εὑρεῖν πεδίον ἐν τῇ γῇ Σεναὰρ κἀκεῖ κατοικῆσαι”

Unjust people from the East settled down in Shinar. Philo equates good with sunlight and vice with darkness, which reminds one of Plato.


In 61 he gives an example of the good .God planted a celestial paradise in the East as anatole -

• 61. παράδειγμα τοῦ μὲν προτέρου τόδε· “καὶ ἐφύτευσεν ὁ θεὸς παράδεισον ἐν Ἐδὲμ κατὰ ἀνατολάς

In 62 a prophet has said " "Behold, a man whose name is the East!" . The man is associated with good, and Philo explains that the name is "of great felicity" because he is *like the first Adam who is the divine image without polluting matter*.


In 63 God " has caused him to spring up as the eldest son, whom, in another passage, he calls the firstborn". This first born of God is Israel. Israel is God's first born, Exodus 4:22


What do think ?

Very interesting.

Are the numbers references to passages in texts? or to years [i.e. AD/CE]?

If references to passages, what passages?
.

[iskander]

It is my work, I am the source.
Unless you mean the translation that I got from Mr Kirby's website

XIV
60. Τοὺς δὲ συνομοσαμένους ἐπ’ ἀδικήμασιν “ἀπὸ ἀνατολῶν” φησι “κινήσαντας εὑρεῖν πεδίον ἐν τῇ γῇ Σεναὰρ κἀκεῖ κατοικῆσαι” (Gen. 11, 2), φυσικώτατα· διττὸν γὰρ εἶδος τῆς κατὰ τὴν ψυχὴν ἀνατολῆς, τὸ μὲν ἄμεινον, τὸ δὲ χεῖρον, ἄμεινον μέν, ὅταν ἡλιακῶν ἀκτίνων τρόπον ἀνάσχῃ τὸ ἀρετῶν φέγγος, χεῖρον δ’, ὅταν αἱ μὲν ἐπισκιασθῶσι, κακίαι δὲ ἀνάσχωσι. 61. παράδειγμα τοῦ μὲν προτέρου τόδε· “καὶ ἐφύτευσεν ὁ θεὸς παράδεισον ἐν Ἐδὲμ κατὰ ἀνατολάς” (Gen. 2, 8), οὐ χερσαίων φυτῶν, ἀλλ’ οὐρανίων ἀρετῶν, ἃς ἐξ ἀσωμάτου τοῦ παρ’ ἑαυτῷ φωτὸς ἀσβέστους εἰσαεὶ γενησομένας ὁ φυτουργὸς ἀνέτειλεν. 62. ἤκουσα μέντοι καὶ τῶν Μωυσέως ἑταίρων τινὸς ἀποφθεγξαμένου τοιόνδε λόγιον· “ἰδοὺ ἄνθρωπος ᾧ ὄνομα ἀνατολή” (Zach. 6, 12)· καινοτάτη γε πρόσρησις, ἐάν γε τὸν ἐκ σώματος καὶ ψυχῆς συνεστῶτα λέγεσθαι νομίσῃς· ἐὰν δὲ τὸν ἀσώματον ἐκεῖνον, θείας ἀδιαφοροῦντα εἰκόνος, ὁμολογήσεις ὅτι εὐθυβολώτατον ὄνομα ἐπεφημίσθη τὸ ἀνατολῆς αὐτῷ· 63. τοῦτον μὲν γὰρ πρεσβύτατον υἱὸν ὁ τῶν ὅλων ἀνέτειλε πατήρ, ὃν ἑτέρωθι πρωτόγονον ὠνόμασε, καὶ ὁ γεννηθεὶς μέντοι, μιμούμενος τὰς τοῦ πατρὸς ὁδούς, πρὸς παραδείγματα ἀρχέτυπα ἐκείνου βλέπων ἐμόρφου τὰ εἴδη.

http://khazarzar.skeptik.net/books/philo/conf_lig.htm


XIV. (60) But those who conspired to commit injustice, he says, "having come from the east, found a plain in the land of Shinar, and dwelt There;"{16}{#ge 11:2.} speaking most strictly in accordance with nature. For there is a twofold kind of dawning in the soul, the one of a better sort, the other of a worse. That is the better sort, when the light of the virtues shines forth like the beams of the sun; and that is the worse kind, when they are overshadowed, and the vices show forth. (61) Now, the following is an example of the former kind: "And God planted a paradise in Eden, toward the East,"{17}{#ge 2:8.} not of terrestrial but of celestial plants, which the planter caused to spring up from the incorporeal light which exists around him, in such a way as to be for ever inextinguishable. (62) I have also heard of one of the companions of Moses having uttered such a speech as this: "Behold, a man whose name is the East!"{18}{#zec 6:12.} A very novel appellation indeed, if you consider it as spoken of a man who is compounded of body and soul; but if you look upon it as applied to that incorporeal being who in no respect differs from the divine image, you will then agree that the name of the east has been given to him with great felicity. (63) For the Father of the universe has caused him to spring up as the eldest son, whom, in another passage, he calls the firstborn; and he who is thus born, imitating the ways of his father, has formed such and such species, looking to his archetypal patterns.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/yonge/book15.html

[MrMacSon]

XIV. (60) But those who conspired to commit injustice, he says, "having come from the east, found a plain in the land of Shinar, and dwelt There;"{16}{#ge 11:2.} speaking most strictly in accordance with nature. For there is a twofold kind of dawning in the soul, the one of a better sort, the other of a worse. That is the better sort, when the light of the virtues shines forth like the beams of the sun; and that is the worse kind, when they are overshadowed, and the vices show forth. (61) Now, the following is an example of the former kind: "And God planted a paradise in Eden, toward the East,"{17}{#ge 2:8.} not of terrestrial but of celestial plants, which the planter caused to spring up from the incorporeal light which exists around him, in such a way as to be for ever inextinguishable. (62) I have also heard of one of the companions of Moses having uttered such a speech as this: "Behold, a man whose name is the East!"{18}{#zec 6:12.} A very novel appellation indeed, if you consider it as spoken of a man who is compounded of body and soul; but if you look upon it as applied to that incorporeal being who in no respect differs from the divine image, you will then agree that the name of the east has been given to him with great felicity. (63) For the Father of the universe has caused him to spring up as the eldest son, whom, in another passage, he calls the firstborn; and he who is thus born, imitating the ways of his father, has formed such and such species, looking to his archetypal patterns.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/yonge/book15.html

= Philo's On the Confusion of Tongues {**Yonge's title: "A Treatise on the Confusion of Languages"} ...

.. which ties to your comments in your previous post (??) (a the top of this page) -

In 60 Philo uses the Greek word 'anatole 'as meaning East. and the land of Shinar that became the Tower of Babel -

• 60. Τοὺς δὲ συνομοσαμένους ἐπ’ ἀδικήμασιν “ἀπὸ ἀνατολῶν” φησι “κινήσαντας εὑρεῖν πεδίον ἐν τῇ γῇ Σεναὰρ κἀκεῖ κατοικῆσαι”

Unjust people from the East settled down in Shinar. Philo equates good with sunlight and vice with darkness, which reminds one of Plato.


In 61 he gives an example of the good .God planted a celestial paradise in the East as anatole -

• 61. παράδειγμα τοῦ μὲν προτέρου τόδε· “καὶ ἐφύτευσεν ὁ θεὸς παράδεισον ἐν Ἐδὲμ κατὰ ἀνατολάς

In 62 a prophet has said " "Behold, a man whose name is the East!" . The man is associated with good, and Philo explains that the name is "of great felicity" because he is *like the first Adam who is the divine image without polluting matter*.


In 63 God " has caused him to spring up as the eldest son, whom, in another passage, he calls the firstborn". This first born of God is Israel. Israel is God's first born, Exodus 4:22

[Secret Alias]

ANOTHER REASON WHY NO ONE EVER IDENTIFIED THE TSEMACH WITH JOSHUA. IfJoshua, the high priest, is the ruler on the throne, why would he need a priest beside him?

[MrMacSon]

There's quite a lot of interesting passages in Philo's Confusion of Tongues (aka 'A Treatise on the Confusion of Languages') -

XVI. (70) Accordingly, the body-loving race of the Egyptians is represented as fleeing, not from the water, but "under the water," that is to say, beneath the impetuous speed of the passions. And when it has once placed itself under the power of the passions, it is shaken and agitated; it casts away the stable and peaceable qualities of virtue, and takes up in their stead the turbulent and confused character of wickedness; for it is said that "God shook the Egyptians in the middle of the sea, fleeing under the Water."{20}{#ex 14:27.} (71) These are they who neither knew Joseph --the diversified pride of life-- but who, having their sins revealed, have not received any trace, or shade, or image of goodness and excellence. (72) For, says Moses, "Another king arose over the Egyptians who knew not Joseph"{21}{#ex 1:8.}

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/yonge/book15.html

The start is interesting too -

I. (1) As to the preceding topics, what has been already said will be sufficient. We might next proceed to consider, and that in no slight or cursory manner, the philosophical account which Moses gives us of the confusion of languages; for he speaks in the following manner:

• "And all the earth had one pronunciation, and there was one language among all men. And it came to pass, as they were moving from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar, and dwelt there. And one man said to his neighbour, 'Come, let us make bricks, and let us burn them with fire'; and they had bricks for stone, and asphalt for mortar. And they said, 'Come, let us build ourselves a city, and a tower whose head shall reach to heaven; and let us make for ourselves a name, before we are scattered over the face of all the earth'. And the Lord came down to see the city, and the tower, which the sons of men had builded. And the Lord said, "Behold, all mankind is one race, and there is but one language among them all"; and they have begun to do this thing, and now there will not fail unto them anything of all the things which they desire to do. *Come, let us go down and confuse their language there, so that each may not understand the voice of his neighbour*. And the Lord scattered them from thence over the face of all the earth, and they desisted from building the city, and the tower. On this account, the name of it was called Confusion, because there the Lord confused the languages of all the earth, and from thence the Lord scattered them over the face of all the Earth."{1}{#ge 11:1.}

[MrMacSon]

... IfJoshua, the high priest, is the ruler on the throne, why would he need a priest beside him?

This (?) -

XVI.
(71) These are they who neither knew Joseph --the diversified pride of life-- but who, having their sins revealed, have not received any trace, or shade, or image of goodness and excellence. (72) For, says Moses, "Another king arose over the Egyptians who knew not Joseph," {21}{#ex 1:8.} the latest and most modern good perceptible by the outward senses, who utterly destroyed not only the perfections but even all improvements, and all the energy which can be exerted by the sight, and all the teaching which can be implanted by means of the hearing, saying, "Come, curse me Jacob; and come, defy Israel for Me;" {22}{numbers 23:7.}

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/yonge/book15.html

[iskander]

This interpretation says that anatole is the Pope

zech 6 :12
{6:12} Et loqueris ad eum, dicens: Hæc ait Dominus exercituum, dicens: ECCE VIR ORIENS NOMEN EIUS: et subter eum orietur, et ædificabit templum Domino.
{6:12} And you will speak to him, saying: Thus says the Lord of hosts, saying: Behold, a man; the Rising is his name. And under him, he will rise up, and he will build a temple to the Lord.

~ Or, ‘the East’ is his name. The sun rises in the East, so the word for rising and for East is the same. Since the rising of the sun in the East is a fact known to all, this correspondence between Rising and East is not merely a coincidence of the Latin language. The man named ‘the Rising’ or ‘the East’ is the one often called ‘the Angelic Shepherd.’ He is the Pope who is in office during the mid to late 2030’s (though his reign may begin earlier), and he has a long papacy lasting into the 2040’s and perhaps the 2050's.
http://sacredbible.org/studybible/OT-43_Zechariah.htm#6

[MrMacSon]

There's quite a lot of interesting passages in Philo's Confusion of Tongues (aka 'A Treatise on the Confusion of Languages') -

XVI. (70) Accordingly, the body-loving race of the Egyptians is represented as fleeing, not from the water, but "under the water," that is to say, beneath the impetuous speed of the passions. And when it has once placed itself under the power of the passions, it is shaken and agitated; it casts away the stable and peaceable qualities of virtue, and takes up in their stead the turbulent and confused character of wickedness; for it is said that "God shook the Egyptians in the middle of the sea, fleeing under the Water."{20}{#ex 14:27.} (71) These are they who neither knew Joseph --the diversified pride of life-- but who, having their sins revealed, have not received any trace, or shade, or image of goodness and excellence. (72) For, says Moses, "Another king arose over the Egyptians who knew not Joseph"{21}{#ex 1:8.}

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/yonge/book15.html

This later related passage is interesting -

XVIII.
(83) But the wicked man (desiring to exhibit the fact that identity of language, and the sameness of dialect, does not consist more in names and common words than in his participation in iniquitous actions) begins to build a city and a tower as a citadel for sovereign wickedness; and he invites all his fellow revellers to partake in his enterprise, preparing beforehand abundance of suitable materials.

(84) For, "Come," says he, "let us make bricks, and let us bake them in the fire," an expression equivalent to, 'Now we have all the parts of the soul mingled together and in a state of confusion, so that there is no species whatever the form of which is evident to be seen'.

(85) Therefore it will be consistent with these beginnings that, as we have assumed a certain essence destitute of all particular species; and of all distinctive qualities, and have also taken up with passion and vice, we should also divide it into suitable qualities, and keep on reducing the proximate to the ultimate species; and with a view to the more distinct comprehension of them, and also to this employment and enjoyment of them combined with experience, which appears to produce many pleasures and delights.

(86) Come, therefore, all ye reasonings of counsellors, in some way or the other to the assembly of the soul; come, all ye who meditate the destruction of justice and of all virtue, and let us consider carefully how we may attain to the end which we desire.

(87) Now of success in this matter these will be the most established foundations: to give to things without form shape and character, and to distinguish each thing separately with distinct outlines, lest, if they become shaken and lame (though fixed on firm foundations,) and if they have assumed a connection with the nature of a quadrangular shape, (for this is a nature always unshaken), they may then, being established steadily like a building of bricks, support even those things which are built upon them.

XIX.
(88) Of such a structure as this every mind adverse to God, which we call the king of Egypt (that is to say of the body), is found to be the maker. For Moses represents the mind as rejoicing in the buildings made of brick; (89) for after some being or other made the two substances of water and earth to be the one dry and the other solid, and mingling the two together, for they were easily dissoluble and corruptible, made a third substance to be on the confines of the two, which is called clay, he has never ceased from dissecting this into small portions, giving its own appropriate figure to each of the fragments, in order that they might be very well compacted together, and very suitable to the objects for which they were intended. For in this way what was being made was sure to be very easily perfected.

[Bernard Muller]

to Ben,

Which of these "if" statements held true for Philo? Did Philo think that the appellation "East" was being applied to an ordinary human with a body and a soul, or did Philo think that the appellation was being applied to an incorporeal being?

I said it before, the same appellation can be applied to different entities. Just like "Lord" is applied to both God and Jesus in the NT. Philo accepted that appellation as applied to a human, but he thought it would applied as well, even better, to his incorporeal being.

Cordially, Bernard