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Re: Carrier proposes the NT Jesus based on Philo's Jesus ang

Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 7:00 pm
by DCHindley
MrMacSon wrote:
MrMacSon wrote:
DCHindley wrote: Are there folks here who are really suggesting that author of Zechariah 6:12 has in mind some sort of celestial being?
Isn't the main proposal & argument that Philo proposed some sort of contemporaneous celestial being?
DCHindley wrote:No, actually I readily accept that Philo understood this to be an allegory for how the Godhead works, understood in a Platonic sort of way. Zechariah, on the other hand, I do not think had any such preconception(s).
That's my point - this is about what Philo 'understood' (by 'contemporaneous' I meant *contemporaneous to Philo*)
Just so you know, I was not necessarily referring to you (unless you did do that).

Doesn't anyone remember science class in secondary/high school, where we would place a seed onto wetted paper towels and in a few days the sprout was jumping up an inch or so? If you think about it, when a star appears on the eastern horizon, it rises up into the sky, in a manner similar to that seed sprout. I don't see it as especially novel. Philo seizes upon this as a sign that the Sprout/Bud really represents cosmic order, as represented by the movement of the celestial sphere in an organized and coherent manner. This just happens to be the function of his "logos" figure, so he wants there to be special significance in the use of that word. FWIW, Philo did not appear to have been able to read Hebrew or even Aramaic, so he was probably not even aware that tsemech means "sprout/bud".

DCH

Re: Carrier proposes the NT Jesus based on Philo's Jesus ang

Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 7:27 pm
by Ben C. Smith
Bernard Muller wrote:I said it before, the same appellation can be applied to different entities. Just like "Lord" is applied to both God and Jesus in the NT. Philo accepted that appellation as applied to a human, but he thought it would applied as well, even better, to his incorporeal being.
Are you deliberately trying to avoid answering the question? Or is this your way of taking option B, that Philo thought that the reference to a man named East/Branch/Sprout/Rising was to an incorporeal being? The man named East/Branch/Rising cannot both have a body and not have a body.

Consider: "If the universe is only 10 thousand years old, then one is hard pressed to explain how light can reach us already from stars further than 10 thousand light years away. But, if the universe is much older, the explanation is easy."

Only one of those two "if" clauses is true. The universe cannot be only 10 thousand years old and also billions of years old at the same time.
'On Mating': But Philo quoted a proverb, whose author is anonymous (so, understandably, no further identification of the author). Anyway here we are not dealing with a prophetic saying, showing that disciple of Moses is not necessarily a prophet.
Is this the passage you are referring to? The passage in which Philo does not identify the author (hint: Solomon), even though Jews of the time regularly deemed a particular figure from Jewish history (hint: Solomon) to have been the author of all the unattributed sayings in the book of Proverbs?

On Mating: "And it is from this consideration, as it appears to me that one of the disciples of Moses, by name the peaceful, who in his native language is called Solomon, says, 'My son, neglect not the instruction of God, and be not grieved when thou art reproved by him; for whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth; and scourgeth every son whom he Received' (= Proverbs 3.11-12)."

Are you sure you are reading Philo carefully enough?
In these days, most people were illiterate and therefore any religious education had to be verbal/oral. So the 'heard" and 'hear".
But Philo was not illiterate. He did not have to learn about the saying by hearing it as showing in the book of 'Zechariah'. Actually, the way he presented the saying shows he was ignorant (or faked ignorance) of its ultimate origin.
Are Philo's own readers illiterate?

On the Change of Names: (171) When, therefore, you hear [ἀκούσῃς] that "Pharaoh and all his servants rejoiced on account of the arrival of Joseph's Brethren," (= Genesis 45.16) do not think that they rejoiced in reality, unless perhaps in this sense, that they expected that he would become changed from the good things of the soul in which he had been brought up, and would come over to the profitless appetites of the body, having adulterated the ancient and hereditary coinage of that virtue which was akin to him.

This comes right in the middle of a long exposition of the story of Joseph, which Philo is clearly deriving from the written text of Genesis. Why, then, does he suggest his readers will hear the story rather than read it?

Similarly:

Allegorical Interpretation III: (51) And the expression "Where art thou?" admits of being interpreted in many ways. In the first place it may be taken not as an interrogation, but as an affirmation, equivalent to the words "You are somewhere," if you alter the accent on the particle pou "where." For, since you have thought that God was walking in the garden, and was surrounded by it, learn now that in this you were mistaken, and hear [ἄκουσον] from God who knows all things that most true statement that God is not in any one place. For he is not surrounded by anything, but he does himself surround everything. For that which is created is in place; for it is inevitable that it must be surrounded, and not be the thing which surrounds.

Who Is the Heir of All Things: (292) Listen [ἄκουε], therefore, in such a spirit as to think his words a good lesson, to this statement of the lawgiver, that the good man alone has a happy old age, and that he is the most long-lived of men; but that the wicked man is the most short-lived of men, living only to die, or rather having already died as to the life of virtue.

How are the readers to listen to the words of the lawgiver if Moses is dead?

You said that Philo himself was not illiterate, so why does he listen to scripture at times?

Who Is the Heir of All Things: (203) And I marvel still more, when listening [κατακούων] to the sacred oracles I learn from them in what manner "a cloud came in the Midst" (= Exodus 14.19) between the army of the Egyptians and the company of the children of Israel; for the cloud no longer permitted the race, which is temperate and beloved by God, to be persecuted by that which was devoted to the passions and a foe to God; being a covering and a protection to its friends, but a weapon of vengeance and chastisement against its enemies.

Or did he forget (or pretend) that the story of the exodus from Egypt came from the scriptures, too, like he forgot (or pretended) about the man named East?

You know, I bet that Philo just sometimes wrote of hearing the scriptures, even when he had not forgotten that the passage in question came from the scriptures and/or was not faking ignorance of the source:

On the Confusion of Tongues: (134) And the statement, "The Lord went down to see that city and that tower" (= Genesis 11.5) must be listened [ἀκουστέον] to altogether as if spoken in a figurative sense. For to think that the divinity can go towards, or go from, or go down, or go to meet, or, in short, that it has the same positions and motions as particular animals, and that it is susceptible of real motion at all, is, to use a common proverb, an impiety deserving of being banished beyond the sea and beyond the world. (135) But these things are spoken, as if of man, by the lawgiver, of God who is not invested with human form, for the sake of advantage to us who are to be instructed, as I have often said before with reference to other passages. Since who is there who does not know that it is indispensable for a person who goes down, to leave one place and to occupy another?

On the Unchangeableness of God: (51) Having now therefore explained these matters sufficiently, let us pass on to what comes next. And this is what follows: "I will destroy," says God, "the man whom I have made from off the face of the earth, from man to beast, from creeping things to the fowls of the air, because I have considered and repent that I have made them." (52) Now, some persons, when they hear [ἀκούσαντες] the expressions which I have just cited, imagine that the living God is here giving away to anger and passion; but God is utterly inaccessible to any passion whatever. For it is the peculiar property of human weakness to be disquieted by any such feelings, but God has neither the irrational passions of the soul, nor are the parts and limits of the body in the least belonging to him. But, nevertheless, such things are spoken of with reference to God by the great lawgiver in an introductory sort of way, for the sake of admonishing those persons who could not be corrected otherwise.

On Drunkenness: (215b) For what advantage is there, from the hearing of the sacred scriptures, to a man who is destitute of wisdom, whose faith has been eradicated, and who is unable to preserve that deposit of doctrines most advantageous to all human life?

I bet that is just one way of referring to the scriptures, and has nothing to do with your forced interpretation of his words.

Ben.

Re: Carrier proposes the NT Jesus based on Philo's Jesus ang

Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:05 pm
by Bernard Muller
to Ben,
Are you deliberately trying to avoid answering the question? Or is this your way of taking option B, that Philo thought that the reference to a man named East/Branch/Sprout/Rising was to an incorporeal being? The man named East/Branch/Rising cannot both have a body and not have a body.
No, Philo did not say the "man" in the saying is the same entity than his incorporeal being. 'Anatole' was applied as an appellation to a man by somebody that Philo heard. Then Philo thought the same appellation could also be applied to his incorporeal being, certainly a different entity than the "man".
Are you sure you are reading Philo carefully enough?
You are right. I did not. But "Solomon', as the believed author of the proverb, solidifies my case: Philo added up here a further identification to his disciple of Moses, while he did not do that in his passage about "Rises": Just companion of Moses (and no mention of the author, Zechariah).
You said that Philo himself was not illiterate, so why does he listen to scripture at times?
Who Is the Heir of All Things: (203) And I marvel still more, when listening [κατακούων] to the sacred oracles I learn from them in what manner "a cloud came in the Midst" (= Exodus 14.19) between the army of the Egyptians and the company of the children of Israel; for the cloud no longer permitted the race, which is temperate and beloved by God, to be persecuted by that which was devoted to the passions and a foe to God; being a covering and a protection to its friends, but a weapon of vengeance and chastisement against its enemies.
Right, Philo said to have been listening, but also he indicated what he listened to: sacred oracles. However in the passage about "Rises", Philo did not mention or even hinted the saying was coming from any sacred texts.

For the rest of your post, Philo took in account that most Jews were illiterate, and the scriptures were communicated to them verbally.

Cordially, Bernard

Re: Carrier proposes the NT Jesus based on Philo's Jesus ang

Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 6:20 am
by Ben C. Smith
Bernard Muller wrote:
Are you sure you are reading Philo carefully enough?
You are right. I did not. But "Solomon', as the believed author of the proverb, solidifies my case....
It also solidifies your methodology: make pronouncements (at odds with uniform scholarly opinion, I might add) about Philo's usage of words in a text you barely know, without having investigated his usage of those words elsewhere, and then defend those pronouncements with an expanding set of overly specific rules that Philo must have followed in composing the text.

For whatever it may be worth, I agree (with you and against Giuseppe) that Philo does not identify the name of his incorporeal entity as Jesus, that naming this entity Jesus goes well beyond the text. (I even think that, precisely because Philo argues, from the nature of the name itself, that Rising is an incorporeal being, and because our default position without further evidence from Philo himself has to be that Jesus/Joshua is regarded as an ordinary human being, the two are not to be equated in Philonic thought.) But your defense of this position has involved you in a host of unlikelihoods that for some reason you do not even recognize as such.

I am done here. The reader can peruse our posts and decide which approach makes the most sense.

Ben.

Re: Carrier proposes the NT Jesus based on Philo's Jesus ang

Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 7:13 am
by Secret Alias
FWIW I agree with Ben but take matters one step further and argue - and will argue in an upcoming paper when I get the chance - that the anthropos here is the anthropos figure in Genesis who wrestled with Jacob and appears elsewhere in the Pentateuch. This is the most logical explanation of the passage as Philo identifies the two creation narratives as pertaining to two different men, one 'spiritual' as it were, the other physical.

My take on the obstinacy in this forum is that people simply haven't taken the time to digest the information that comes to us from a variety of ancient sources. Since they developed opinions before spending years reading the primary texts they end up forcing texts to say things they don't really say - in order to agree with their prematurely formed theses. Often times these 'theses' are shaped by bad scholarship, like that associated with the likes of Richard Carrier who is less a scholar and more of an activist disguising himself as a scholar (a kind of 'inversion' of Christian apologetics = effectively engaging in 'atheist apologetics' effectively).

It is a pattern we see over and over again in life. My mother is just recovering from chemotherapy and a major operation and many of my nutty relatives who are also ancient will call up and begin by expressing concern for her situation only to launch into a discussion of how much suffering they are undergoing in their old age. My son plays competitive soccer and his team videotapes each game for the team and parents end up fast forwarding to only the parts where their kid is active.

In short this is a human problem. We always make things 'about us' rather than 'about the evidence.' It's really hard to do that because we are only human after all. But I really think that people should spend more time digesting the collective evidence from antiquity - Philo, early Christian writers, early rabbinic sources, Samaritan sources - in order to get a more informed idea about what is possible or likely when interpreting any individual piece of evidence.

Re: Carrier proposes the NT Jesus based on Philo's Jesus ang

Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 7:35 am
by Giuseppe
Ok, for Melchisedec, but there is no evidence he did so for Jesus, son of Josedec. Philo even did not name that Jesus. How could he allegorize him?
Philo allegorized many, but that does not mean he also allegorized somebody he did not even mention.
The note 76 of p. 35 of this 2015 book The Zechariah Tradition and the Gospel of Matthew (Charlene McAfee Moss) confutes once for all the Bernard's argument (that Philo didn't allegorize a mortal guy as the Logos):
The fact that Philo did look for a human figure, the man, in his Num 24 exposition, prevents his interpreters from assuming that the man in Zech. 6 is “completely spiritualized”; see de Savignac, “Le Messianisme de Philon d'Alexandrie,” 320. Pace Hecht, “Philo and Messiah.”
(p. 35)

Moral: Philo was still assuming a MAN behind the title ANATOLE even if he declared that title not of a mere human guy but of the Logos. This would be another coincidence with Paul & co: that the angel is a MAN. A celestial MAN.
Therefore the probability that Philo yet alluded to a mortal guy in Zecharia becomes more strong, not more weak.
by Philo's time, the guy hailed as ANATOLE is Jesus son of Josedec. Period.


How do you know what I bolded?
I know what you bolded because by Philo's time the sacerdotal power was clearly more important (to the eyes of Philo and other mainstream Jews, too) than the royal 'davidic' power: a Idumee was on the throne.
The exaltation of Melchizedek HP (and I would add: Joshua the HP) correspond to this political trend, and note that Melchizedek was considered without parents in virtue of the only fact that there was no mention at all of his parents in the scriptures (i.e. in virtue of a mere argumentum ex silentio, not because there was already a Melchizedek cult).

Therefore, even if the 'historical' Zechariah alluded to Zorobabel or the future anonymous messiah as the ANATOLE, by the time of Philo only and only Joshua represented the fusion of royal (davidic) and sacerdotal power, exactly as Melchizedek. The force working behind the link ''Melkizedek HP=Davidic king'' was the same force working behind the link Joshua=ANATOLE. This is EVIDENT.
For whatever it may be worth, I agree (with you and against Giuseppe) that Philo does not identify the name of his incorporeal entity as Jesus, that naming this entity Jesus goes well beyond the text. (I even think that, precisely because Philo argues, from the nature of the name itself, that Rising is an incorporeal being, and because our default position without further evidence from Philo himself has to be that Jesus/Joshua is regarded as an ordinary human being, the two are not to be equated in Philonic thought.)
Philo didn't spiritualize at 100% who he did mean as anatolè (see my academic 2015 quote above). Therefore you can defend only a rational position (if you want argue rationally against Carrier): that Philo didn't mean the mortal guy Joshua as the anatole but the mortal guy Zorobabel or a not-better defined human future davidic messiah.

Prove to substitute in Ben's quote any occurrence of Joshua with Melchizedec and you would have a false proposition (therefore putting in doubt even the same original quote):
For whatever it may be worth, I agree (with you and against Giuseppe) that Philo does not identify the name of his incorporeal entity as Melchizedek, that naming this entity Melchizedek goes well beyond the text. (I even think that, precisely because Philo argues, from the nature of the name itself, that Rising is an incorporeal being, and because our default position without further evidence from Philo himself has to be that Melchizedek is regarded as an ordinary human being, the two are not to be equated in Philonic thought.)

But I see (from the academic book referenced above) that in the Gospel of Matthew (already having the ANATOLE behind the Star of the Magi) Jesus is crowned with thorns and a possible midrashic source is just the crown of Jesus of Josedec in Zecharia.

Often times these 'theses' are shaped by bad scholarship, like that associated with the likes of Richard Carrier who is less a scholar and more of an activist disguising himself as a scholar (a kind of 'inversion' of Christian apologetics = effectively engaging in 'atheist apologetics' effectively).
I disagree strongly with this claim. Carrier is a true scholar in his alternative exegesis of Gal 1:19 to which I am and will be forever in debt.

Re: Carrier proposes the NT Jesus based on Philo's Jesus ang

Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 8:21 am
by Secret Alias
An infinite number of monkeys typing forever on a keyboard will eventually type Hamlet.

Re: Carrier proposes the NT Jesus based on Philo's Jesus ang

Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 8:28 am
by Giuseppe
Carrier would be the monkey?

Were it not that you're a mythicist (and with a sound knowledge of ancient traditions), I do not pardon the joke.

Re: Carrier proposes the NT Jesus based on Philo's Jesus ang

Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 8:30 am
by Secret Alias
Of course Giuseppe can't address the question of engaging in scholarship with an open mind because he doesn't possess an open mind. He can't address the question of engaging texts with a detailed knowledge of other near contemporary texts because he doesn't possess such knowledge.

When I read Philo - not just this one passage but most of what Philo wrote - I see clear signs that his Alexandrian community (of which he was a leading representative) - shared traditional readings of the Pentateuch and related texts with Jewish and Samaritans abroad. There are ideas that clearly influenced (perhaps indirectly, perhaps directly) early Christianity. When all is taken as a totality there is nothing to suggest that anyone interpreted Joshua to be the anatole/tsemach. That speaks volumes and requires that anyone come up with something more substantial than mere 'wishful thinking' (a wish which seems clearly connected to making Jesus a supernatural being a la contemporary 'mythicism').

If you were a serious scholar (which I do not consider you to be judging by your posts here) you'd have been struck by Andrew Criddle's post a while back noting that the LXX (the text Philo used) to interpret 'Jesus' as the anatole. Why no answer to that post? Why just continue blabbing on about what YOU WANT TO BE TRUE rather than what the text allows? Indeed the fact that the LXX makes it impossible to understand the anatole to be Jesus is why no one before the established Christian religion read the text that way. I would disagree with Criddle when he says that the Hebrew text allows for such an interpretation. I don't see much different between the two texts. The bottom line is that God addressing Joshua speaks of the tsemach as sitting beside a priest. This is very difficult - if not impossible - to reconcile with Joshua the high priest. That's why no Jews ever posited the view in antiquity.

Re: Carrier proposes the NT Jesus based on Philo's Jesus ang

Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 8:34 am
by Secret Alias
Were it not that you're a mythicist
I am not a 'mythicist.' I think that Christianity fits in within the general milieu of a 'Jewish' or 'Samaritan' tradition. As such I find it easier to reconcile said tradition via the traditional angel 'man' than with any other explanation. I don't necessarily subscribe to many 'popular' mythicist tropes including but not limited to, the entire narrative of the gospel was 'made up.' In fact, I think there is compelling evidence it was set in a particular year in 'real history.' Beyond that I have pretty much an open mind regarding what might or might not be possible with regards to early Christianity.